D.C.: 2nd Amendment Does Not Apply Here

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Desertdog

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D.C.: 2nd Amendment Does Not Apply Here

By MATTHEW BARAKAT
Associated Press Writer
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GUN_BAN_ATTORNEY?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Second Amendment's provisions protecting the right to keep and bear arms apply only to the federal government, not the 50 states and the District of Columbia, lawyers for the nation's capital argued Friday in a written brief to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The district is seeking to preserve its three-decade ban on handgun possession after a federal appeals court ruled in March that the ban is an unconstitutional infringement on an individual's right to keep and bear arms.

The U.S. Supreme Court agreed to take the case, setting up what could be a landmark ruling on the scope of the Second Amendment. The court has not addressed the issue in a significant way for nearly 70 years.

"We are going to argue not just the most significant legal case in the history of the District of Columbia, but one of the most significant legal challenges in the history of the country," Mayor Adrian Fenty said at a press conference Friday in which he introduced former U.S. Solicitor General Walter Dellinger as the lead attorney representing the district.

The primary issue is whether the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right or a collective right belonging to state militias. A majority of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled that the founding fathers intended the right apply to individuals and struck down the D.C. law, though it remains in effect while the case is on appeal.

The district argues that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms only in the context of an organized militia.

In the brief, the district makes an additional argument: That the founding fathers' concern in drafting the Second Amendment was to protect states from an overbearing federal government that might restrict access to firearms as a means of crippling state militias.

As such, the Second Amendment only restricts Congress, they argue.

"The primary goal of those who demanded (the Bill of Rights) as a condition of ratification to the Constitution was to control the federal government," the lawyers wrote. "That is especially true with respect to the inclusion of the Second Amendment."

Alan Gura, the lawyer representing the D.C. resident who challenged the law, called the district's argument "very creative but wrong."

The fundamental flaw, he said, is that the district is a creation of Congress and the federal government, so the D.C. Council would be subject to the same restrictions as Congress in passing gun-control laws.

Randy Barnett, law professor at Georgetown University, agreed that the argument is strained, and said that if the high court accepts the notion that the right to bear arms is an individual right, it would be hard pressed to turn around and allow the district and the states to violate that right.

The district's interpretation "is at odds with the text and the original meaning of the Second Amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights as well," Barnett said.

The Supreme Court may hear arguments in the case in March.

Because the case addresses not only the Second Amendment but also the peculiar status of the District of Columbia as a federal enclave, it is unclear whether the Supreme Court ruling will have a direct impact on the national gun-control issue.
 
My god. Even I, with my miserable ability in logical construction, can see the District's argument is more than "strained."

Now I'll consider just how far the ruling may go....

Jim H.
 
Jeffrey Snyder, in his article "A Nation of Cowards," labels those who would destroy that right ,as "The Liberal Elite," and "Philosopher Kings" who derive their philosophy from Plato's "The Republic"- A perfect world, where everyone obeys the law, and only they (The Elite) have access to weapons.

The fortunate American citizen has that wondrous protection from such would be tyranny- The Constitution- we in darkest Britain have no such protection. The latest outrage to emasculate, repress, and humiliate the Brits, is a new pledge to ban "Replica", deactivated, guns!

"All that is neccessary for Ba$***** to triumph, is APATHY"
 
D.C. bans machine guns, pistols, short barreled shotguns and short barreled rifles.

Methinks that will not be the case after March. :D
 
I'm trying to follow the logic of that argument, and having a great deal of difficulty. I haven't read the full brief, but looking at the information given in the post, I see:

1. The second amendment protects states against an overbearing federal government.

2. In order to check an overbearing federal government, the states may use force of arms. :confused:

Therefore, states may ban the ownership of arms by the citizens of the state.
:scrutiny:
Doesn't seem to follow. In fact, if the states have an interest in checking the federal government, and they can ban private firearm ownership, they should be able to build armies, which I think is also forbidden explicitly in the Constitution. (article 1, section 10)

Now, I'm no expert, but I don't think D.C. has an independent force for this purpose. (Is he talking about the National Guard?)

What I find more confusing is the apparent implication that building a militia for the express purpose of defending a state from the federal government is okay. I'm pretty sure that's illegal in all 50 states as well as D.C., commonweaths, and territories.

Can anybody make sense of this?

I wish the Supreme Court would just come out and incorporate the 2nd as an individual right, but unfortunately it looks like the way they defined the question will preclude anything that progressive.

Still, if this is what the D.C. side passes as an argument, I think they're going to lose.
 
They explicitly argue that the "unorganized militia" doesn't count because it obviously isn't a "well-regulated militia".

That the whole notion of a "militia" is that citizens who are ALREADY armed join together for communal defense escapes them.
 
Well if the second is no good there, then how about the first? We should demand that the Washington Post be shut down since the Constitution of the US has no bearing there.....
 
The 2nd protects "the right of the people" - what people? We the people of the United States (per the preamble). If the people of DC are also people of the United States, their right is secured, from ALL infringment.

And that right has a larger scope then ONLY militia duty, despite what DC tries to "prove" (so terribly) in thier brief.
 
I'd like to see them explain how if the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to DC, the 13th DOES. Any counsel or justice for that matter with half a brain would make them say that slavery is legal in DC.
 
SWEET! that means I can live in D.C. and not pay taxes!

Is it wrong for me to say that argument sucks?

otherwise

Is it wrong for me to say that they sound like the kid who just before school would let out would say "Teacher you forgot our homework"?

:rolleyes:
 
I'm really nervous about this case, even though their argument does stand on very thin ice. i guess it's just become tough to trust the individuals in decision making positions in the government to make good judgement calls lately.

great post about the 13th, if the second doesn't apply let's get to capturing, maybe open up a 'Labor Supply' business?
 
I'd like to see them explain how if the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to DC, the 13th DOES.

DC is a special case, but I think it would be awfully easy to explain how the 2nd doesn't bind the States but the 13th does. The 2nd wasn't intended to bind the States, it doesn't say that it binds the States, nor does it delegate a federal power to bind the States. In contrast, the 13th was intended to bind the States, it says that slavery shall not exist within the US, and it says that Congress shall have power to enforce the article.
 
It seems hypocritical to say that:

The freedom of the 2nd amendment only limits the Federal government's authority to interfere in State/DC firearms legislation. The 2A protects the right of States/DC to limit firearms ownership.

BUT - Things like Brady bills and AWB's that use FedGov power to limit state's rights are perfectly okay?

So... no matter what, limitations are okay from any level of government. In fact, the 2A means nothing. It just means the FedGov can't restrict arms from its Federal Armed Forces. It has no teeth for the citizenry or the states.

Under that logic, Montana/Wyoming/Arizona need to legalize full-auto weaponry inside their state lines. After all, the FedGov has no power to limit state level legislation, right?
 
In contrast, the 13th was intended to bind the States, it says that slavery shall not exist within the US, and it says that Congress shall have power to enforce the article.

Ah, but show me where the District of Columbia has been signed in as one of the United States. Hard to bind them when they aren't inclusive in the definition.

On the other hand, the 2nd Amendment applies to US citizens - ie, "we the people of these United States"...
 
azred,

Partially right. According to them, any govt can do anything as long as it does not interfere with a person's role in "the Militia". Since only a select few are in "the new regulated Militia", and the feds take care of arming them, all is well because no other right is secured.

Weird how they keep harping on the fantasy that the intent of the 2nd is about protecting "state perogatives", yet do not try explain the fact that the states have no more power to disarm or limit the arms of the state militias then the feds do, as to do so would deny the federal govt the entity most important to protecting our liberties - the effective militia. (The states do however have the duty to present guidlelines for how the people will effectively arm and organize themselves if the feds don't.)

Again, it doesn't matter to DC they argue, due to the creation & use of a federal militia in place of the constitutional militia (despite the unconstitutionality of the feds directly arming its members and so being able to easily disarm them) - they feel the NG is the only organized militia.
 
I think it would be awfully easy to explain how the 2nd doesn't bind the States but the 13th does. The 2nd wasn't intended to bind the States, it doesn't say that it binds the States, nor does it delegate a federal power to bind the States.

That line of reasoning doesn't pan out, considering the 2nd IS intended to apply to the people, and DOES say that it affects the people, but they still ignore that part.

None of this is about what it does and doesn't say. NG VI is right: this isn't about law, or right and wrong, or black and white, or even interpretation. It's about how nine people vote on the issue.

DC could have framed their argument as "the constitution is made of paper, and toilet tissue is made of paper, so therefore the only thing the constitution is good for is wiping", and with five commies on the bench, that would be good enough for supporting the gun ban. They don't need reason, just a viable excuse.
 
The Second Ammendment dissected:

A free State is of paramount importance.
A well-regulated militia is necessary to achieve a free State.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms ensures a well-regulated (preparation being part of that) militia.
Shall not be infringed protects the free State at the root level by protecting each INDIVIDUAL citizen, not groups thereof.
 
the 2nd Amendment applies to US citizens - ie, "we the people of these United States"
the 2nd IS intended to apply to the people, and DOES say that it affects the people
I am sorry, but I cannot make any sense out of these assertions. The Second Amendment does not bind Citizens, the people, corporations, State and local governments, or anything but the federal government. DC is a special case, the DC laws in question not being federal laws, but DC being under federal jurisdiction in all matters.

Just the other day I read something in the Congressional record where a Congressman from Vermont stated the reality rather plainly:

"in the minds of those who framed the Constitution probably no belief was firmer than that for all time it was much safer to leave the states to protect the rights of the people than to place that duty upon the General Government."
 
We had just finished revolting and beating the crap out of our own abusive government (England). I can't understand how some people believe that the authors of the Constitution would then establish a new government with the same monopoly on weapons. :banghead:
 
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