Defender Mindbender --- again (sorry)

[51Cards]

In a nutshell --- flawless with 165gr JHPs, EFMJs. Stovepipes (usually last round in mag) consistently with 230gr FMJs.

We've tried this braced down on a Caldwell rest, so it isn't "anticipation," or "weak-wristing." Three guys have shot it, three guys have had the exact same results. The mags are temporarily marked, and the pipes can happen on either mag.

New Wolff springs.

My "surrender," if that is what it is: putting standard GI-type followers (with The Dimple) in, and living with a 6-round capacity.

I have wrestled this beast, and at least have it humming on what I need it to eat. Now, getting it to eat what I want it to eat ... I mean, Hydros are a little expensive for the range, ya know?

I think there was a comment --- perhaps by Tuner, perhaps by Fuff --- relating to the follower/capacity-reduction thing, but I can't spot it.

Is this my last (reasonable) option? (I can live with 6+1.)

 

[NVMM]

from 1911 Tuners Clinic

Empty round stovepipe. Usually noticed on the last round, but can occur anywhere.

Too much recoil spring. Weak or broken grip. Low extractor tension. Extractor clocking. The clocking extractor usually results in the last round being crunched by the slide, even though all others kick out of the port well. The extractor still has a grip, but the rotated hook drops it due to not having a convex surface to support the case. The magazine follower is depressed far enough to prevent slidelock, and the case rides the slide back toward battery. Crunch. I've seen the empty brass actually get stuffed back into the magazine on occasion.

An oversized firing pin stop with a press-fit usually takes care of it, but if the extractor channel is located too far to the right in the slide, it won't help. Besides a new slide (expensive) the fix is to rough up the FP stop slot in the extractor, fill it with JB Weld, and file to a press fit. (Cheap) Jerry-rigged? You bet. Does it
work? You bet.

 

[51Cards]

It is always a live-round stovepipe. (I remembered the part about the JB, even have the stuff. The extractor is a bit to the right, and does clock slightly. This only happens with 230gr ammo, even Rangers.

 

[NVMM]

Did you check the clinic at the top of the page. Some good stuff.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=61238
Hopefully the Master Tuner will chime in.
Some of these problems sure can be frustrating.
Good Luck

 

[1911Tuner]

Defender

Last round only ejection problems are almost always caused by the extractor rotating...or clocking in its channel, while failures to extract/eject due to extractor tension or hook geometry generally happen at random.

A clocking extractor will also often cause erratic ejection with the cases that do eject....not always, but more often than not. It also tends to crush the last round in the port, between the slide and barrel hood. The crushed cases are caused by the extractor pulling the case part-way back into the magazine, depressing the follower enough to keep the slide from locking back.
When the slide moves to battery, it tires to feed the empty case, and crushes it.

More tension may cure a clocking extractor temporarily, but the sure cure is to order an oversized firing pin stop and size it to effect a light press-fit.
Wilson Bulletproof extractors have a little extra meat in the FP stop slot that often takes care of the problem without having to fit an oversized stop.
Some drop in, and others require that a small amount of stock be removed from the extractor side of the firing pin stop.

 

[51Cards]

It's always a live round --- with the ball pointed straight up. Only happens with 230s, I swear. Mystery gun. :banghead:

Hey, at least it does everything else right now.

 

[1911Tuner]

Live Round

Live round??? Cards...Details. We need details. "Stovepipe" usually means failure to eject.

A live round stovepipe is known as a Bolt Over Base misfeed. Sometimes called a "Rideover Feed" it's actually not a full rideover.

The culprit in about 98% of the BOB issues is the magazine spring. Simply put...The slide is outrunning the magazine on the last round, when tension is at minimum. I suspect that there are a couple other factors involved, but can't prove'em.

In the others...Too much recoil spring and/or limp grip causing the slide to short-cycle can mimic the same failure. Also a slight chance that the recoil spring is going into coil bind, and causing the problem.

 

[51Cards]

This gun is an "old patient" here. I've read a lot of the background information you guys have provided, and I still seem to have "oddball" stuff going on.

Details:
After several hundred rounds, the gun would stem bind on hollowpoints. All of them. I did some (very careful!!!! very slow !!!!) work on the barrel ramp. When I was done, it would feed JHPs of all flavors --- except that it would occasionally stovepipe a live Ranger, almost always the 7th round in the mag.

I replaced the mag springs with Wolff +5%.

The gun has not mis-fed or mis-ejected a sub-230-grain JHP in months. (With a preference for Federal 165gr JHP.)

Ejection tends to be a swish-shot --- I've had a couple of the guys spot me, and the brass would all drop right into an appropriately placed barrel. Clockwork.

Limp grip is unlikely. The same thing happens to anyone firing the pistol. I just finished firing it from an extremely rigid grip, resting on a Caldwell front rest: 1mag 1, OK; mag 2, 7th round stovepipe (live). Reload, and the same thing would happen --- but the other mag. So, I've come to feel that whatever is happening has little to do with the mags. BUT ...

... again, my question about the followers. I've put the GI-Dimple followers in, replacing the Little Orange Horrors. Haven't tried it yet, but I was wondering if the dimple (or lack thereof) might have something to do with that bottom round going haywire.

I've taken up a lot of time and space with this gun, and I appreciate all of it. It's gone from a "wouldn't bet a dime on it" to a solid 165gr JHP performer.

But, oddly enough, I now have a mini-1911 that eats hollows, but gags on balls.

Is there some JMB Curse that I don't know about?

 

[1911Tuner]

Defender

51Cards wondered:

>Is there some JMB Curse that I don't know about?<
*************

Yes. It's called the "That's what ya'll get for choppin' my slide down to 3 inches and really expectin' that it'll work as well as the one that I spent all those years burnin' the midnight oil to get right" curse.....

When you install the standard 7-round follower in those magazines...you need to use the standard 7-round spring, too. The +5% Wolff spring was designed to operate with flush-fit, Devel follower-equipped, one-extra-round capacity mags...whether they're the shortened OM/Defender length, or full sized GM and Commander magazines. When you put a standard follower on top...they don't act right.

The original Officer's Model magazines were shortened to hold 6 rounds, and they used the standard 7-round follwers and springs, and they worked pretty well. Then, the geniuses who turned the 7-rounders into 8-rounders used the same logic in turning the OM/Defender 6-round mags into 7-rounders...and ran smack into a brick wall in about half the pistols they tried'em in. Yet, they persevere...and keep arguing with that wall, while John Browning gazes down from his heavenly home...sayin:

Three inches??? You've GOTTA be yankin' my chain! And what the Helle's Belles led ya to believe that wimpy spring and that rockin' & rollin' follower was gonna work with about twice the slide speed as mine ran with?"

And probably...

...too.

 

[51Cards]

Right --- for this "round," I've put the other springs back in, with standard dimpled followers. The rear leg of these followers is longer --- providing greater rigidity, but also reducing capacity by one round.

In the other Defender posting, I'd mentioned some premature slide lock. Now, I'm thinking the remaining problems are all related --- the cartridge moving forward in the magazine and "nosing" the slide lock lug, the live-round stovepipe. I think (!?) I'm re-discovering the Magazine as Culprit. But how?

Is it possible that de-clocking the extractor and using dimpled followers would make an intelligent combination for this nonsense?

Or, as is more likely --- there is no intelligent combination ... just leave well enough ...

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

51Cards wondered:

>Or, as is more likely --- there is no intelligent combination ... just leave well enough ...<
*************

Oh yeah...There's a combination that'll work. On some guns, it's a simple matter of changing out parts, and on others, it can be an exercise in frustration...but all will respond if the right buttons are tweaked. This is the essence of fine-tuning. Some require it, and some don't...but the chopped-down variants require it more often than their larger cousins at a ratio of about 3:1 or so. At least, that's been my experience.

"A little girl, who had a curl in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good, she was VERY good! But when she was bad....she was horrid."

Pretty much sums up the sub-Commander-length pistols. I have an early 1991A1 Compact...aka Officer's Model...that's never missed a beat. A friend of mine bought its identical twin that was within 500 on the serial number...and it wouldn't hit a lick until I spent about 5 hours cussin' and cryin' and prayin' over it. Colt had the gun twice, and he finally swallowed his pride and called me...dreading the "I told ya so" that he knew was comin'.

The last-round/live round "stovepipe is a magazine spring problem. Basically, the slide is outrunning the magazine as it tries to get the round into feeding position. Most often happens on the last round, but has also been seen on the next-to-last round...just not very often.

The clocking/rotating extractor causes ejection problems most of the time, with the occasional failure to extract...but clocking doesn't normally cause a failure to extract by itself. Extractor tension and hook geometry usually play the major role. A clocking extractor with good tension will extract...drop the case...and often get stuffed back into the magazine. Badly mangled case mouths are the telltale sign of a clocking extractor...whether they're jammed in the port, or found on the ground.

Erratic ejection is another indicator of a clocking extractor, whether or not it causes a jam or stoppage, with the last round being the most erratic, or simply just barely dribbling out of the port.

You can cure the live-round stovepipe with a good mag spring unless the gun is short-cycling...which is a recoil spring issue. The last round ejection problems are most often cured by "Stopping the Clock" which can be as simple as adding tension, or as involved as fitting an oversized firing pin stop.
A new extractor may also be part of the cure...but not necessarily.

 

[51Cards]

Just J-B-Welded the extractor slot a bit, let it cure, carefully filed it in. I'm amazed at how little error it took to induce maybe 7-10 degrees of rotation. Finished, there's only a couple of thousandths of new material. Now, the extractor is trued-up and stop is a light press-fit against it.

As to the mag springs --- this is the third set. Went from standards, to Wilsons (with followers), to Wolff +5%s, and now, Wilsons with standard (dimpled) followers. Give it another try.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Quotes:

>Just J-B-Welded the extractor slot a bit, let it cure, carefully filed it in.<

It won't last...
***************

And:

>>to Wolff +5%s, and now, Wilsons with standard (dimpled) followers. Give it another try.<<
***********

The standard followers don't do well with the Wolff +5% springs. They were designed to work with the folded Devel +1 extra round followers. The standard wolff 11-pound spring and the standard 7-round flat, dimpled follower will work.

 

[51Cards]

Yes, these are standard springs, and standard dimpled 7-rd followers (which are 6-rd in the Defender).

I realize that the JB won't last --- but it makes for an interesting experiment, see if it's worth the hassle of carving up an oversized extractor, if I can get one with an oversize slot. The extractor is a bitt too far to the right. Maybe means nothiung.

My little corner of insanity ...

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Quote:

>The extractor is a bitt too far to the right. Maybe means nothiung.<
********

Au contraire', mon ami. Means much. Maybe everything. If the bottom of the extractor's FP stp slot is located too far from the edge of the stop to be restricted, you may not be able to easily stop the clock without gluing the extractor in place...which isn't recommended, by the way, unless you never plan of takin' it out again.

The mislocation too far starboard may also mean the the hook itself is out relative to the breechface centerline, which can cause extraction and ejection problems. You can accomodate for that by reducing the size of the front pad...the locating pad...but the rear is pretty much where it is. The only alternative is to silver-solder a steel shim into the slot that contacts the firing pin stop.

 

[51Cards]

I don't seem to be having extraction/ejection problems --- although, at this point, who knows which is causing what.

The left edge of the rear of the extractor is slightly sub-flush to the hammer channel --- and, without my JB-fiddling, can clock a few degrees (not very much at all). The material required to fill the extractor slot is miniscule. I suspect that if I silver soldered, after filing I'd be left with just a film of solder.

Again, through all of this, it happily spits out 165gr JHPs, etc. Which was the point. I guess. Now, I have a functional weapon that costs too much to shoot a lot at the range.

Later this week I'll get around to trying this thing with the 7rd/6rd-in-Defender followers (actually, a Colt and a Springfield, dimensionally identical), with std 7rd springs.

This is a riot, as a project --- like a "project car."

It is also my last <4" 1911. I swear it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Project

If there's that little mislocation, you might try a Wilson Bulletproof extractor.
They have a little extra meat in the FP stop slot. Combined with an oversized FP stop, filed to a light press-fit, that will probably solve your busted clock problem neatly.

 

[51Cards]

Hmmm ...

OK.

Originally: JHPs stem-locked constantly. Did a little barrel ramp work, and 165gr JHPs worked perfectly. 230gr Rangers did not.

Then: 230gr FMJs, occasional premature slide lock, last-live-round stovepipe (often).

Now: standard 7rd followers & springs (bringing it down to 6rds); JB-ed extractor trued and light-press-fit to FPS.

Result: near-perfect. Specifically, 14 magazines (84rds) of 230gr FMJ, flawless, then deliberately holding loosely, two mags with last round stopping just short of fully feeding. Followed by two more mags, gripped properly, flawless. Followed by two more mags of 165gr JHP, flawless.

This is the best balance of performance I've had so far. I suspect that the 230gr Rangers would work properly, too.

Sorta hoping that this hodgepodge of symptoms/reliefs will yield some sort of Universal String Theory that would tie all of it together. Seems like a few conflicting syndromes, to me. Also seems like there's an awfully tight balancing act on this little gun. Neither of the (5") 1911s are nearly as picky.

This is Voodoo mechanics. The 165gr JHPs are still "Yee-Haa!", and the 230gr ball is at least a "Haa!" I have a suspicion that Colt figured they had all of the problems licked with the Devel follower, etc., with a 7rd mag. That may be so, and I'm sure that the 85 owners of those perfect little guns are happy.

You are very patient to drag through all of this.

I swear by Saint Moses that I will never, ever get anything with a 3" barrel and a pony stamped on it again.

One of the greatest pluses is that now, when someone else has a glitch, I can generally offer some reasonable insight. One of the minuses is that my hair is somewhat patchy, from the spots where I've torn it out by the roots. :banghead:

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Quotes:

>two mags with last round stopping just short of fully feeding.<
***************

Just a wee bit too much extractor tension. Instead of takin' it back out...load a round into the chamber and let it sit for a day or two to let the extractor take a light set...or go the mo' funner route and shoot it a couple hundred times. It *should* level out.

And:

>>Also seems like there's an awfully tight balancing act on this little gun. Neither of the (5") 1911s are nearly as picky.<<
*************

Ah! You noticed that, huh?

And finally:

>>>I swear by Saint Moses that I will never, ever get anything with a 3" barrel and a pony stamped on it again.<<<
***************

Go and sin no more, my son.

But...Go ahead and swear off the others too.

 

[51Cards]

So ... the extractor is holding onto the next-to-last case a smidge too long, and the last (6th) round is prevented from shuffling along from the mag in time to make it all the way?

Which, I suppose has nothing to do with the need to use the "long-bottom" dimpled follower. Separate issue.

What's weird is that I have the feeling if you could find someone with a perfectly-performing Defender, and mike up every single part --- they'd spec out the same, and there still wouldn't be any answer.

I think I need a crossbow ...

 

[51Cards]

That's it for me ...

The For Sale sign is going out.

Interesting project, great-handling gun, great concept. The thing'll shoot the _____s off a rat at fifty feet.

But ...

After three guys have fired it, with different ammo, magazines, springs, follwers, and prayers, the only differences are the number of rounds between malfs. So, it ain't me.

On the plus side (part of my prior "Yee-hah" still stands), it pretty much functions flawlessly with 165-grain JHPs of any flavor. Ranges bolt-over or stovepipe, and about eight different flavors of 230-grain will --- on alternating sessions --- shoot 10 in a row, 80 in a row, or 8 in a row.

So, to keep it means to feed it 20/$25 ammo.

Loaded with "Federal Lights," is it a dead-accurate and dependable piece? Yup.

I'm tossing in the greasy rag on this one, though. If I want a low-capacity high-reliability sledgehammer, my next will be a Glock. And I don't particularly love Glocks.

1911, you have been a saint and a marvel. Thanks. I've learned a pile about 1911s through all of this, and I'm not sorry for the experience. A 3" 1911? Well, not on my wish list any time again real soon. Like, maybe when I get to the age JMB would be now, if he were still walking among us.

Maybe, though, a Commander. I have a feeling that the difference between 3" and 4" is measurable in more than just inches.

I'll hang a nice price tag on this Defender, and someone else will love it, too. Maybe hate it, too. (I don't. I just can't live with it. )

Thanks for all the help!