wildcatter109
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Derringer
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wildcatter109
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I don't trust my life to CHEAP GUNS, there is usually a reason there cheap! I also don't recommend any weapon for CCW to anyone as only they know there own limitations. I also don't expect everyone to understand how someone can be proficient with certain specialty weapons. Some know how to use a derringer, and reload quickly, some think 18 shots are necessary! I have been taught to use a weapon that only holds 2 to 9 rounds and make the first one count!
I know my limitations after over 40 of the last 58 years shooting and competing with them. I have competed since the early 70's with big bore handguns and Unlimited Specialty pistols out to 200 meters in Silhouette Competition. I have hunted everything from Varmint to Elk with handguns, and that is all I use today for hunting besides Bow's! I shoot between 4 to 6000 rounds a year still in handguns alone, I use to shoot a lot when I was younger. I am the Range Officer at our County Conservation Club, and run the rifle matches there, and belong to 2 other private ranges locally. I have had many self defense courses and cc classes over the years, in the class and on the range, all by Certified Professionals, from LEO's to Vet's!
So I understand there are many who find it difficult to understand how some can be proficient with certain specialty weapons, and at the same time, I understand there are those who can't proficiently use a 32 or 38 special. My advice to them is practice,,,,, A LOT!! As a someone once said "A MAN'S GOT TO KNOW HIS LIMITATIONS"!!
Bond Arms derringers and most certainly not cheap. They're high-quality heavy stainless steel milled precisely and you pay a pretty penny for them; I sure did.
the ten-foot shot pattern is better than I expected from such a short barrel. 3.5 inches of barrel lenght lets you use a 3 inch .410 shell. I take #6, #8, 000, slug, and .45 Colt on ATV treks across the desert. A great deal of versatility.
the ten-foot shot pattern is better than I expected from such a short barrel. 3.5 inches of barrel lenght lets you use a 3 inch .410 shell. I take #6, #8, 000, slug, and .45 Colt on ATV treks across the desert. A great deal of versatility.
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BCRider
Member
A shooting buddy had a Bond Arms for a while in .45Colt/.410. I got to shoot it a couple of times.
The trouble with the Bond and the other derringers I've shot is that if it's not a .22 then the difference in recoil in your hands between the two barrels makes it VERY hard to hit what you want to hit at much past 5 feet with any reasonable degree of accuracy. The Bond I shot with medium strength .45Colt loads had POI's that differed by almost a foot even at 5 yards out. A .38Spl derringer I shot had even worse upper to lower difference due to a smaller grip. But they ALL have some pretty big difference in POI due to the bore axis difference. So all in all I would have to say that if you already have a J frame revolver then I would strongly suggest that you simply arm up that one with what you need.
A nice option, if you know you'll have the time during an encouter, is carry a mix of solid and shot rounds. The shot rounds can be marked on the head with a felt pen color so that you can quickly open the cylinder to switch from shot to solid or the other way as required and depending on the most likely use.
The trouble with the Bond and the other derringers I've shot is that if it's not a .22 then the difference in recoil in your hands between the two barrels makes it VERY hard to hit what you want to hit at much past 5 feet with any reasonable degree of accuracy. The Bond I shot with medium strength .45Colt loads had POI's that differed by almost a foot even at 5 yards out. A .38Spl derringer I shot had even worse upper to lower difference due to a smaller grip. But they ALL have some pretty big difference in POI due to the bore axis difference. So all in all I would have to say that if you already have a J frame revolver then I would strongly suggest that you simply arm up that one with what you need.
A nice option, if you know you'll have the time during an encouter, is carry a mix of solid and shot rounds. The shot rounds can be marked on the head with a felt pen color so that you can quickly open the cylinder to switch from shot to solid or the other way as required and depending on the most likely use.
BSA1
member
Derringers for primary carry give a illusion of adequate self-protection.
First of all I can not imagine a situation where the shooter will say "Whew I sure am glad I didn't have more than two rounds".
Second in the case of the Bond they are very heavy and bulky. Like Rugers they are overbuilt which allows them to chambered in large calibers.
Third revolvers are cursed by the tac rambos as being slow to reload. Derringer...forget it.
Derringers are very unforgiving to careless handling. The son of the owner of Bond accidently shot and killed himself with one of their guns.
By the time you add larger grips (needed for bigger calibers) along with the size and weight of a Bond you are packing the same as a J-frame or small frame semi-auto without the extra rounds. Seems like a poor tradeoff to me.
Small derringers do have a place in real world carry as a back-up gun. I carried a High Standard 22 mag. as a Onion Field gun.
First of all I can not imagine a situation where the shooter will say "Whew I sure am glad I didn't have more than two rounds".
Second in the case of the Bond they are very heavy and bulky. Like Rugers they are overbuilt which allows them to chambered in large calibers.
Third revolvers are cursed by the tac rambos as being slow to reload. Derringer...forget it.
Derringers are very unforgiving to careless handling. The son of the owner of Bond accidently shot and killed himself with one of their guns.
By the time you add larger grips (needed for bigger calibers) along with the size and weight of a Bond you are packing the same as a J-frame or small frame semi-auto without the extra rounds. Seems like a poor tradeoff to me.
Small derringers do have a place in real world carry as a back-up gun. I carried a High Standard 22 mag. as a Onion Field gun.
wildcatter109
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if they don't fall out when you flip the barrels open, it just takes a wipe of the finger to drag them out. the recoil is pretty mild with the 45 acp, as long as you stay away from +P. I would say that I have very little use for +P in this caliber. I think the ability to control your fire is the main object when you are throwing 230 grain, 1/2" diameter hunks of lead at over 800 fps. Center of chest and you should have their attention.
BHP FAN
Member
my derringer is an old FIE .38, I picked up at a pawn shop for about a hundred bucks, it's card table accurate, small, and with two .38 specials, not bad in the recoil department.
bassdogs
Member
Wcatter - Not sure why you went on so about your shooting background, and I guess your point was that some with tons of practice can be effective with "speciality" guns. I get it! But then we digress away from the derringer and its value as a SD weapon. PS my reference to a cheap Davis certainly didn't imply that I bought it or fire it occasionally for life and death situations.
With your shooting experience, you separate yourself from 99.9% of the shooters out there. Even those who shoot thousands of rounds a year, few spend that much time shooting a derringer. Not sure why you are so vigerous in your defense of such a "speciality" weapon and why a person with your experience wouldn't use that experience to give better direction to a person considering purchasing such a weapon. There is certainly no indication that the poster is planning on shooting to the extreme that you state is necessary to become profiecent with such a weapon.
In more simple terms, lets go to a local gun store and pick out 25 customers at random and take them to the shooting range in the back. Give them a high quality derringer of .38 or larger and a S&W [or other reputable] short barrel revolver and lets see where they lay the rounds at 30 feet. Derringers are not easy to shoot nor are they accurate for most shooters outside of 5 or 6 feet. Then there are those pesky 2 rounds you have in the heat of the moment to try to hit a bad guy who by the requirements of lawful selfdefense is intending you deadly harm.
I would and am pointing the poster of this thread to another weapon and away from considering the derringer.
With your shooting experience, you separate yourself from 99.9% of the shooters out there. Even those who shoot thousands of rounds a year, few spend that much time shooting a derringer. Not sure why you are so vigerous in your defense of such a "speciality" weapon and why a person with your experience wouldn't use that experience to give better direction to a person considering purchasing such a weapon. There is certainly no indication that the poster is planning on shooting to the extreme that you state is necessary to become profiecent with such a weapon.
In more simple terms, lets go to a local gun store and pick out 25 customers at random and take them to the shooting range in the back. Give them a high quality derringer of .38 or larger and a S&W [or other reputable] short barrel revolver and lets see where they lay the rounds at 30 feet. Derringers are not easy to shoot nor are they accurate for most shooters outside of 5 or 6 feet. Then there are those pesky 2 rounds you have in the heat of the moment to try to hit a bad guy who by the requirements of lawful selfdefense is intending you deadly harm.
I would and am pointing the poster of this thread to another weapon and away from considering the derringer.
At 15 feet I can put four .36 cal lead balls into a man- sized target's chest with each of two pulls of the trigger.
While it is capable of firing 45 Colt, I prefer the 000 buck for last- ditch defense.
Is it my first choice of defense against a two legged predator? No. That's why it is kept for poisoness snakes, rats, and mice and generally loded with birdshot. But, when I don't want to belt on my 38, 9mm, 40, or 45, for a trip to the corner stop & rob for coffee, fits into my pocket better than my J-frame.
While it is capable of firing 45 Colt, I prefer the 000 buck for last- ditch defense.
Is it my first choice of defense against a two legged predator? No. That's why it is kept for poisoness snakes, rats, and mice and generally loded with birdshot. But, when I don't want to belt on my 38, 9mm, 40, or 45, for a trip to the corner stop & rob for coffee, fits into my pocket better than my J-frame.
No Quarter
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- May 8, 2003
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- 310
BSA - WRONG!!!!! You are thinking of American Derringer. The owners kid died when he closed their derringer on a live .45 Colt round without putting the gun at half-cock. When he closed the action, it fired the round into his gut, killing him. Of course, that is a fantastic endorsement for the effectiveness of the large rounds in these little guns, despite the tragic circumstances.
There was a thread on here a couple years ago about a man that stopped a carjacking and killed his attacker DRT with a Bond derringer using .410 buckshot.
Here is the link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-237382.html
The story is also proof of the effectiveness of these guns for their designed purpose of up close proctection. They are NOT target guns and as such, should not be judged like a range gun.
Bond Arms have a rebounding hammer and the firing pins are NOT protruding into the chamber unless the hammer is cocked and the trigger is pulled.
Bond Derringers are great little pocket guns. I have several. Their new 2.5" mini barrel greatly reduces the footprint of the gun. The picture of it next to my little Guardian .32 shows the small size. The gun is now only 4.5" long and weighs 18oz. I guess 18oz is heavy to some people. I personally have no problem carrying this gun in my pocket.
For those that desparage these little guns, they do the job they are asked to do as long as you practice with them. They also tend to hold on to a lot more velocity than most people seem to understand. I used to have a .44 mag barrel for my Bond that kicked out a 240gr JSP at 1100 fps. So, at "give me your money" distance at the ATM, I am pretty sure it would dick the bad guy up pretty well. There are videos on Youtube showing several different calibers fired through a chrony and the results are pretty nice.
See it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhaIUuZaNaU
Also, comparing .40S&W performance between a Glock 23 and a Bond Arms. The derringer hold on to pretty good velocity despite the MUCH smaller size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJcOK5zK0s
So, let's not discount the derringer as the worst gun EVER for self defense. Are there better ones? Sure are! But, the little Bond Arms guns serve some us just fine in a self defense role.
There was a thread on here a couple years ago about a man that stopped a carjacking and killed his attacker DRT with a Bond derringer using .410 buckshot.
Here is the link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-237382.html
The story is also proof of the effectiveness of these guns for their designed purpose of up close proctection. They are NOT target guns and as such, should not be judged like a range gun.
Bond Arms have a rebounding hammer and the firing pins are NOT protruding into the chamber unless the hammer is cocked and the trigger is pulled.
Bond Derringers are great little pocket guns. I have several. Their new 2.5" mini barrel greatly reduces the footprint of the gun. The picture of it next to my little Guardian .32 shows the small size. The gun is now only 4.5" long and weighs 18oz. I guess 18oz is heavy to some people. I personally have no problem carrying this gun in my pocket.
For those that desparage these little guns, they do the job they are asked to do as long as you practice with them. They also tend to hold on to a lot more velocity than most people seem to understand. I used to have a .44 mag barrel for my Bond that kicked out a 240gr JSP at 1100 fps. So, at "give me your money" distance at the ATM, I am pretty sure it would dick the bad guy up pretty well. There are videos on Youtube showing several different calibers fired through a chrony and the results are pretty nice.
See it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhaIUuZaNaU
Also, comparing .40S&W performance between a Glock 23 and a Bond Arms. The derringer hold on to pretty good velocity despite the MUCH smaller size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHJcOK5zK0s
So, let's not discount the derringer as the worst gun EVER for self defense. Are there better ones? Sure are! But, the little Bond Arms guns serve some us just fine in a self defense role.
Attachments
BSA1
member
Derringers for primary carry give a illusion of adequate self-protection.
First of all I can not imagine a situation where the shooter will say "Whew I sure am glad I didn't have more than two rounds".
There was a thread on here a couple years ago about a man that stopped a carjacking and killed his attacker DRT with a Bond derringer using .410 buckshot.
Here is the link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-237382.html
The story is also proof of the effectiveness of these guns for their designed purpose of up close proctection.
One instance only showed that in this particular incident it worked (just barely) The O.P. states he fired a .410 shotshell which hit the victim in the throat and did not exit A lucky shot does not mean the derringer was the best choice or even a wise choice. Incidently the post lacked any documentation just the posters story.
Second in the case of the Bond they are very heavy and bulky. Like Rugers they are overbuilt which allows them to chambered in large calibers.
The Bond Snake Slayer (their most popular model) specs are; Barrel: 3 1/2“, Weight: 22 oz., Length: 5 1/2 “, Capacity: 2, MSRP $ 475.00,
Ruger LCR specs; Barrel: 1.8”, Weight: 13.5 oz. empty, 5 rounds of 357 adds 3.0 oz, Length: 6 1.2”, Capacity: 5, MSRP $525.00, out the door price; $430.00.
Since you mention the Guardian .32 Ruger LCP specs; Barrel: 2.75” Weight: 9.5 oz., Length: 5.16”, Capacity: 6+1 9mm, MSRP $330.00, dealer $220.00.
You pay your money and take your chances. You are the only one that can determine the personal risk to you.
First of all I can not imagine a situation where the shooter will say "Whew I sure am glad I didn't have more than two rounds".
There was a thread on here a couple years ago about a man that stopped a carjacking and killed his attacker DRT with a Bond derringer using .410 buckshot.
Here is the link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-237382.html
The story is also proof of the effectiveness of these guns for their designed purpose of up close proctection.
One instance only showed that in this particular incident it worked (just barely) The O.P. states he fired a .410 shotshell which hit the victim in the throat and did not exit A lucky shot does not mean the derringer was the best choice or even a wise choice. Incidently the post lacked any documentation just the posters story.
Second in the case of the Bond they are very heavy and bulky. Like Rugers they are overbuilt which allows them to chambered in large calibers.
The Bond Snake Slayer (their most popular model) specs are; Barrel: 3 1/2“, Weight: 22 oz., Length: 5 1/2 “, Capacity: 2, MSRP $ 475.00,
Ruger LCR specs; Barrel: 1.8”, Weight: 13.5 oz. empty, 5 rounds of 357 adds 3.0 oz, Length: 6 1.2”, Capacity: 5, MSRP $525.00, out the door price; $430.00.
Since you mention the Guardian .32 Ruger LCP specs; Barrel: 2.75” Weight: 9.5 oz., Length: 5.16”, Capacity: 6+1 9mm, MSRP $330.00, dealer $220.00.
You pay your money and take your chances. You are the only one that can determine the personal risk to you.
doc2rn
Member
I have owned both the Cobra and Bond arms derringers, and they are both as heavy as carrying a regular revolver. I would recommend a Kit gun .22lr with 8-9 shots for serious pit viper control. I dont mind snakes as long as they are not poisonous, but the ones that are get my full attention and lead.
This article from forbes magazine states the owner of American Derringer, Elizabeth Saunders, had 2 children. One was killed in by a drunk driver and one in an "accident at the gun plant". I assume this is the child in question. which would have been about 1994, well before the safety you speak of was installed. Because of the age of the children and the marriage to the original owner, it looks like the kids were from another relationship
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1998/0615/6112045a_print.html
loose noose
Member
I don't agree with the .22 rim fire using snake shot as being effective, I know of a buddy that tried to shoot a rattler with one and all it did was pi$$ him off. As far as a derringer goes, I own an American Derringer in double action, SS, .38 spl. I know it will put both barrels into a 2" group at 10 yards all day long. However it does shoot it bit high, so I've become accustomed to shooting at the lower belly of the silhoutte target. Note: I use Hornady Critical Defense loads. I've also shot CCI snake loads and those seem to shoot at POI at POA. I've been known to carry that arm with me in cargo shorts when the temps out here get over 100 degrees.
PRM
Member
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I've owned a American Derringer Model 1 in 45LC/.410 for about 20 years now. With field shot it will make short work of snakes at close range. I load my .45LC with black powder, shot through this gun, they are more fun than the 4th of July. The .410 and .000 Buck are pretty effective rounds for the little gun within its limits.
Out to about 5 yards, I'm happy with it shooting the field shot, and the .45LC and .000 buck will take it back to the 7-10 yard range in accuracy. So we are talking about a close range gun.
I don't see myself carrying this gun as a primary SD firearm. A good 38 snub or a Walther, just make a better choice.
Will I ever get rid of the little gun? Nope - don't see that happening. Derringers are just classic arms with a historical mystic. Mine has been hand polished with Mothers Mag Polish to an almost nickel finish. I also put a set of elephant ivory grips on it and lowered the front sight to give it a more Remington appearance.
Want to start a range conversation - touch off a black powder round through it. Between the smoke and flame belching out of the muzzle combined with the deep throated booming. Folks just naturally smile and ask what the heck was that...
Out to about 5 yards, I'm happy with it shooting the field shot, and the .45LC and .000 buck will take it back to the 7-10 yard range in accuracy. So we are talking about a close range gun.
I don't see myself carrying this gun as a primary SD firearm. A good 38 snub or a Walther, just make a better choice.
Will I ever get rid of the little gun? Nope - don't see that happening. Derringers are just classic arms with a historical mystic. Mine has been hand polished with Mothers Mag Polish to an almost nickel finish. I also put a set of elephant ivory grips on it and lowered the front sight to give it a more Remington appearance.
Want to start a range conversation - touch off a black powder round through it. Between the smoke and flame belching out of the muzzle combined with the deep throated booming. Folks just naturally smile and ask what the heck was that...
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