"Do you honestly believe the founding fathers encoded violent revolution into BoR?"

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At the time the second amendment was written, the militias were an *instrument* of the government, not a force to act against it.

We didn't have a standing army at that time, so the citizen militias were necessary for national defense and security. Now that we have a standing all-volunteer army, there is absolutely no need for citizen militias (which is why there aren't any).

Every time someone brings up this argument, I wonder why, if the statement is valid, did the founding fathers feel it necessary to ensure the right to the federal government. Isn't it kind of stupid to include a clause that the "army" has the right to keep and bear firearms? Were they worried that some congress down the road was going to pass a gun ban against the army?
 
"Do you honestly believe the founding fathers encoded violent revolution into BoR?"

Gee, let's look at some facts, shall we?

Fact #1: Most of the same people who passed what we know as the 2nd Amendment, and most of those in the various state legislatures who ratified it, were either leaders of the Revolution or its footsoldiers. In other words, they had participated in a violent revolution against what was, for roughly a century, the legally constituted government of the place where they lived.

Fact #2: The writers of the Constitution were trying to create "a new order for the ages," i.e. a government that would last for many, many generations and which would serve the people - something that had NEVER been done before. They were afraid of the power of a central government, having just witnessed the abuses of such power that were inflicted upon the people here by England. Hence, they devised a government that was intentionally without any powers other than those mentioned specifically, and divided those powers between three competing branches.

Fact #3: Even the safeguards in #2, above, weren't enough for many. They demanded and received assurances that a series of amendments would be drafted and submitted to the states after the government was formed (IF it was formed), the purpose of which would be to specifically protect certain rights for the people.

Fact #4: Among those rights to be protected was the RKBA, which not only was a basic right in and of itself, but one which was instrumental in actually gaining our independence from England (thereby allowing the possibility that the rest of our rights would even have a chance to be codified and protected).

Fact #5: In addition, the possibility that the Constitution itself would fail to protect our rights at some distant, unseen point in the future was one that haunted the Founders. They desperately desired to make sure that the natural human inclination of those in power to increase that power at the expense of those not in power would somehow or other be deterred for as long as possible and, when said deterrence failed, they wanted to be sure that some future generation had - IN ITS HANDS - the means to do that which they, themselves, had just done less than 15 years before.

You are dead wrong. Maybe they didn't say "The People shall have the right to violently overthrow the government" in so many words in the Second Amendment, but the intent is just that - and it is as clear as day to anyone who knows the history of the era.

Oh, BTW, have you ever taken a look at the Declaration of Independence? It is the theory behind the very practical Constitution Here's the relevant portion:

...that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn(sic), that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
 
Once More:

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my initial post; I though my reply had cleared up the misconception, but apparently not. That was not my post; it was somebody else. When I read it, my first reaction was to laugh (which I did), then cry (which I did), then to post it over here, we we could all laugh, then cry, and then reply to the guy and explain why he's off his rocker. I agree with the sentiments expressed here: "yes" and "no, it's not encoded, it's plain as day!"

The story is off the front page now, so any replies aren't likely to be read. In good news, there were five good responses modded up to +5 (maximum score), so I think the point was made. However, if you want to reply to the guy, his homepage is posted, which has his e-mail address and a link to his blog, where he discusses politics....
 
Flyboy, you may want to edit your post and use the
tags around the quoted lines. I can guarantee you that more people will respond before even clicking the link or reading the rest of the thread.
 
I can guarantee you that more people will respond before even clicking the link or reading the rest of the thread.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I probably didn't even need to start this thread; it looks like there's a huge overlap between here and Slashdot. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I probably didn't even need to start this thread; it looks like there's a huge overlap between here and Slashdot.

Ya think? My nick is the same here as it is there. I'm /. user #177587, which I think is pretty good considering that they're fast approaching a million registrations.
 
yes

i'm guessing that they thought problems would come from outside but else were oaths refer to enemies foreign and domestic.
 
Do you really think the FF codified the ability to speak freely/peacably assemble?!!

The FF thought enough of tyrants to list(BOR) what tyrants can't do.

So do you honostly believe the 2nd ammendment is about hunting :confused: :uhoh: ?

Both the question above and the one in my title are insulting to ask to any one with a basic knowlege(which admittedly I have :) ) of the Constitution and post revolution times...
 
Hkmp5sd
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Winter Haven, FL
Posts: 5,248

Quote:
At the time the second amendment was written, the militias were an *instrument* of the government, not a force to act against it.

We didn't have a standing army at that time, so the citizen militias were necessary for national defense and security. Now that we have a standing all-volunteer army, there is absolutely no need for citizen militias (which is why there aren't any).


Every time someone brings up this argument, I wonder why, if the statement is valid, did the founding fathers feel it necessary to ensure the right to the federal government. Isn't it kind of stupid to include a clause that the "army" has the right to keep and bear firearms? Were they worried that some congress down the road was going to pass a gun ban against the army?

I suppose it could be to ensure that all (able-bodied) citizens had a right to serve... given that regiemes that discriminate against (or in favour of) one section of society have a tendancy to employ their favoured / exclude their disfavoured group from the military. (No Jews in the Nazi armies, etc).

(Not saying that's what I think the 2A means, just trying to think of a hypothetical alternative).
 
I always have to laugh when people try to read the 2nd Amendment as a government/ military right and not an individual citizen right.

If that was the case, wouldn't it have been included with the other executive responsibilities enumerated in the main body of the U.S. Constitution?

The Bill of Rights specifically lists the rights of citizens. Every single one of them details the rights and fair expectations of The People, listing what the government MAY NOT do to citizens.

It is silly to argue that the 2nd Amendment somehow got misplaced within the Constitution and pertains to government-run militia.
 
kbheiner7, your [p]oint is exactly why I keep harping on the Preamble to the BOR.
Which, amusingly enough, is not in the GPO's little Constitution book.

<hat material="tinfoil">I wonder why...</hat>
 
I just had a scary thought.

Going over this thread, I just realized that I may not be covered by the 2A anymore. That age thing, you know, between 17 and 45?

(I already got 'em and I ain't givin' 'em up!)
 
Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I probably didn't even need to start this thread; it looks like there's a huge overlap between here and Slashdot
Yep. There are a lot of gunnies on /. - there are also a lot of antis on slashdot. If nothing else, the site attracts people with...er, "distinct," shall we say, opinions. But it certainly can't hurt to post it here, so that our side is notified to show up in such a thread.

For the record, I'm user #105494 over there, with the same nick as here. Feel free to say "hi" if you see me.
 
Going over this thread, I just realized that I may not be covered by the 2A anymore. That age thing, you know, between 17 and 45?
20Cows:

I wouldn't worry about it....

If the anti's get their way, it won't matter.

Meantime, they're not likely to admit that it means what we say it does anyway, so while folks outside the date range might take a hit, the 17-45 crowd would have a big win.

Overall, too, I don't think the ages are hard & fast enough to worry about. The concepts, IMHO, of personal and local defense (even if we ignore the basis of this thread) don't really apply to age limits at all - more "those who can, do."

Just IMHO.....
 
Flyboy, I got into an argument with an anti-gunner about the very existence of the Preamble to the BOR. He had never seen it nor heard of it.

So, already knowing the answer, I asked him if he ever went to the main Post Office. (Thomasville, GA) Yup. Okay, I sez, had he ever stopped to look at the reproductions of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that take up most of one wall of the lobby entrance?

No.

Hokay, sez me, next time you're there, read the Preamble. I gotta assume that these documents were neither written by or placed there by the NRA. And sure enough,he added to his marginal storehouse of knowledge about the U.S. of A.

Well, that ended THAT argument. :)

Helluva note when an injuneer has to educate a District Court Judge with a doctorate in law...

Art
 
"A free people ought not only to be armed and desciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition [which they may choose] to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -G.Washington
 
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