Early Winchester 1894 - work project or not?

[carebear]

A buddy of mine has a family heirloom, octagonal barrel, Winchester 1894 .30 WCF ser# 2181xx purchased in 1901 or 04. It has been through a fire and has had a Redfield receiver sight added at some point so I doubt it retains too much collector value, but before I start looking at crowning or sleeving the barrel I wanted to make a quick check that it isn't a long-lost treasure.

It apparently is keyholing rounds out past 50 yds or so, so something will need to be done. I haven't looked it over or shot it yet but I suspect the rifling may just be worn down, it has always been a shooter in the family.

 

[Jim K]

Your statement that "it has been through a fire" raises alarm bells. If the rifle got very hot, the heat treatment has been destroyed and the gun could, at best, wear out quickly or, at worst, fail when firing.

You can't sleeve a high pressure barrel, as the insert has to be strong enough itself to stand the pressure. The only thing you can do is re-barrel, which would probably not be cost effective. Model 94's of that vintage are becoming desireable collectors items, but only if in original and very nice shape, which yours does not seem to be.

If the gun is otherwise OK, you might try just giving it a good cleaning, using an electronic cleaner if one is available. But if the rifling really is gone, IMHO, it is a wall hanger.

Jim

 

[carebear]

Jim,

It really DOES belong to a real buddy of mine, not the mythical "I'm too embarassed to admit it's me" kind of buddy.

Apparently the fire was 20 years ago and the rifle has been shot and hunted since.

So, using the optimist view, it CAN"T blow up now.

Didn't think of it getting de-heat treated and accelerating the wear.

I didn't realize .30-30 was too hot to sleeve. But this obviously isn't my area of expertise. What I'm hoping to see, after a good scrubbing, is if it may just need to be crowned.

I guess I'll clean it and take it to a real smith, let him check the temper and check out the bore.

Thanks a lot.

 

[carebear]

Turns out the fire didn't even scorch the wood (original is on there), no charring on the points that contact the metal, so I don't think it is damaged.

And it has been shot a bit since, so I feel better about the risk to my face when I show him what accuracy means.

 

[Jim K]

Sorry about writing as if the gun were yours; just a habit and keeps me from always saying "your friend's gun".

If the wood wasn't hurt, the fire didn't do any damage to the gun, so that is not a problem.

The reason you can't use an insert (liner) with a high power rifle is that when the barrel is reamed, it is never quite perfect, plus there has to be room for the epoxy or solder that holds the liner in. That means the liner is not really well supported and unless it can hold the pressure alone, it will bulge in unpredictable ways when fired. Lining barrels was common on old military rifles at one time. The early .50-70 "trapdoor" rifles used .58 musket barrels lined to .50, but that was a low pressure cartridge and the barrels were reamed out enough to allow a sufficiently thick liner.

Jim

 

[carebear]

Thanks Jim,

Not a bad habit, I just get overly defensive when I feel ignorant. So I get defensive a lot.

Good to hear about the fire, I did go ask him about it after your post and he informed me the wood on it was original and we figured it would had to have charred if the metal got hot enough to be damaged.

I can't figure out where I read recently about sleeving barrels but your explanation makes a lot of sense. I guess it's off to the range to see what i can see.

 

[Gewehr98]

Is the rifling in the barrel really worn?

Or is it just seriously fouled by all those bullet jackets sent through it since 1901?

The reason I ask is because I have an 1898 Krag that I thought had badly worn rifling. On a whim, I sent a nylon brush through the bore soaked with Sweet's 7.62 solvent. It came out very blue, as did the subsequent patches.

I learned that early jacketed bullets, either copper or cupro-nickel, often laid down a thick layer of jacket fouling. My Krag was an example of that, and after several passes of Sweet's, quality time with my Outer's Foul-Out, and some JB Bore Paste, the Krag's barrel has a mirror finish and sharp rifling again.

Perhaps your Model 94 is keyholing due to jacket fouling?

 

[Jim K]

The old cupro-nickel bullet jackets, which were used in both military and commercial ammunition, were hell on barrels. They left metal deposits in the barrels in clumps which not only ruined accuracy but layered over the corrosive salts left by the potassium chlorate primers of the day. Altogether, a bad deal, but the best they had for the time. An electronic bore cleaner works very well to remove those deposits, but nothing can restore a barrel that has rusted out from corrosive primers or simple neglect.

Jim

 

[carebear]

I can see the copper in the barrel from the muzzle. I will suggest a good scrubbing prior to the range trip.

It's been a hunter so I'm sure any corrosive particulate was taken care of sometime in the latter half of the century.

Thinking about it though, I doubt it has been cleaned well recently, the current owner is a former Navy aircrewman.