Ever wonder if we (gun supporters) get bogged down in detail (to a fault)

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Doug.38PR

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Anyone ever wonder if we gun supporters get too bogged down in politics and supporting politician A,B or C or supporting legislative act X Y OR Z that we miss the big picture of preserving liberty as a whole?

For example, supporting federal legislation that would make all states recognize CHL licenses from all states. Isn't this kind of dangerous. Sure the right to keep and bear arms is a right (just on that we shouldn't even have to have CHLs anyway as far as I am concerned), but if the Federal government can "give" us the right to carry with licenses then they can just as easily take it away. In fact, it can accurately be said that if the Federal (or even state) government give rights then they aren't really rights at all just priviledges.
 
That's just one issue among many. Some folks do indeed seem to make careers of picking flypoop from out of the pepper.

One aspect of a national CHL law is that the Congress would have made a policy statement that using deadly force in defense of one's person is valid and real. Call it the acknowledgement of a right.

In the real world of politics, you take what you can get. Then you go back for more, and take what you can get. Then you go back for more...

Art
 
I can see your line of thinking, but the truly important thing about a national reciprocity is that it would force California, Massachusetts, Illinois, and New York to recognize the permits of other states (including "non-resident" permits like the ones that Florida issues to people who live in states other than Florida). Sadly, even though it was never theirs to restrict in the first place, none of the legislators in these states will ever choose to trust their constituents with the right to arm themselves. This end-run is necessary to force positive change down their throats and will help to crush the anti-freedom agenda.
 
In the real world of politics, you take what you can get. Then you go back for more, and take what you can get. Then you go back for more...

Agreed. But if you take a quarter and they come around and take a dollar, then you are losing .75 cents for every quarter you get no matter how much you keep coming back.

If Congress is allowed to run roughshod over the states in one area in the name of (Protecting gun rights), in one area, then they surely can have the power to do something else (based on that presumed right) that we don't want. What if they said Texas has to allow homosexual marriages, what if they said Texas cannot have indoor gun ranges, what if they nullified other laws of the State of Texas or Ohio or ________ that they didn't see fit. What of the Congress decided to revoke all CHLs? If they have the power to make them recognized nationwide (essentially making them national CHLs issued by provinces like Ohio or Louisiana) then they can revoke them.
 
I think I see this happening all the time

meaning what Doug originally said in his first post. It is my impression that there are so many members that make their political beliefs a one-issue belief. That is, they are for the politician that supports gun rights. In our present case it appears the Republicans are more heavily favored by gun enthusiasts. In the meantime, IMHO, this Republican administration is busy eroding a lot of other personal freedoms and civil rights. I am very worried about the USA becoming a police state. It is all done in the name of fighting terrorism and people are so afraid they have voted this Bush dictator into office at least once (2004) and the he lucked out and got the job from the Supreme Court in 2000. Please everyone, do not just look at the RKBA issue.. there are others to think about.
 
If Congress is allowed to run roughshod over the states in one area in the name of (Protecting gun rights), in one area, then they surely can have the power to do something else (based on that presumed right) that we don't want. What if they said Texas has to allow homosexual marriages, what if they said Texas cannot have indoor gun ranges, what if they nullified other laws of the State of Texas or Ohio or ________ that they didn't see fit.

Well, in my example what they are doing is defending a Constitutionally-enumerated right, and in your example, they're not.

I am very worried about the USA becoming a police state.

If a politician is trying to take your gun rights away, he's endorsing a police state. If he's leaving your guns alone, a police state is impossible.
 
Well, in my example what they are doing is defending a Constitutionally-enumerated right, and in your example, they're not.

Ummmmm.....not exactly. If they were, why would they need to pass an act. We already of the 2cond amendment.
What they are doing is not defending a right, but establishing a privledge of having a CHL (not the same thing as the RTKBA) or rather taking it to the national level


Here is a better illustration of what I am talking about in a speech by Ron Paul:

Gun Rights vs. Centralization

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD



Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, April 9, 2003

Mr. Speaker, I rise today as a firm believer in the Second amendment and an opponent of all federal gun laws. In fact, I have introduced legislation, the Second Amendment Restoration Act (HR 153), which repeals misguided federal gun control laws such as the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban. I believe the Second amendment is one of the foundations of our constitutional liberties. However, Mr. Speaker, another foundation of those liberties is the oath all of us took to respect constitutional limits on federal power. While I understand and sympathize with the goals of the proponents of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (HR 1036), this bill exceeds those constitutional limitations, and so I must oppose it.

It is long past time for Congress to recognize that not every problem requires a federal solution. This country's founders understood the need to separate power between federal, state, and local governments to maximize individual liberty and make government most responsive to citizens. The reservation of most powers to the states strictly limited the role of the federal government in dealing with civil liability matters; it reserved jurisdiction over matters of civil tort, such as alleged gun-related negligence suits, to the state legislatures.

While I am against the federalization of tort reform, I must voice my complete disapproval of the very nature of these suits brought against gun manufacturers. Lawsuits for monetary damages from gun violence should be filed against the perpetrators of those crimes, not gun manufacturers! Holding manufacturers liable for harm they could neither foresee nor prevent is irresponsible and outlandish. The company that makes a properly functioning product in accordance with the law is acting lawfully, and thus should not be taken to court because of misuse by the purchaser (or in many cases, by a criminal who stole the weapon). Clearly these lawsuits are motivated not by a concern for justice, but by a search for deep pockets and a fanatical anti-gun political agenda.

However, Mr. Speaker, the most disturbing aspect of these lawsuits is the idea that guns, which are inanimate objects, are somehow responsible for crimes. HR 1036 shifts the focus away from criminals and their responsibility for their actions. It adds to the cult of irresponsibility that government unfortunately so often promotes. This further erodes the ethics of individual responsibility for one's own actions that must form the basis of a free and moral society. The root problem of violence is not the gun in the hand, but the gun in the heart: each person is accountable for the deeds that flow out of his or her own heart. One can resort to any means available to commit a crime, such as knives, fertilizer, pipes, or baseball bats. Should we start suing the manufacturers of these products as well because they are used in crimes? Of course not – the implications are preposterous.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would remind my fellow supporters of gun rights that using unconstitutional federal powers to restrict state gun lawsuits makes it more likely those same powers will be used to restrict our gun rights. Despite these lawsuits, the number one threat to gun ownership remains a federal government freed of its constitutional restraints. Expanding that government in any way, no matter how just the cause may seem, is not in the interests of gun owners or lovers of liberty.

In conclusion, while I share the concern over the lawsuits against gun manufacturers, which inspired HR 1036, this bill continues the disturbing trend toward federalization of tort law. Enhancing the power of the federal government is not in the long-term interests of defenders of the Second amendment and other constitutional liberties. Therefore, I must oppose this bill.
 
Whether or not it is a “Constitutionally protected” right depends on your interpretation of the 14th Amendment … is the 2nd Amendment incorporated or not.

I think the bigger issue is federalism … it does seem a touch convenient that folks who usually want to restrict the reach of the federal government are clamoring for a federal statute directing the states to do something.

Someone without consistency in their beliefs is just like a politician – starting with a pre-determined result then determining your reasoning for getting there.

The best and most consistent reasoning I can think of off hand is to say that such legislation was pursuant to section 5 of the 14th Amendment (congress can pass legislation to enforce the amendment) which incorporates the 2nd Amendment making it applicable to the states. This may be a hard sell. I believe the current bill is based on the commerce clause – language to the effect that it applies to guns that have traveled in interstate commerce.

I am not a big fan of justifying all sorts of legislation based on tenuous commerce clause arguments.
 
a privledge of having a CHL (not the same thing as the RTKBA)

Apparently, we're not starting from common ground. The right to carry IS part of the right to keep and bear arms.

If they were, why would they need to pass an act. We already of the 2cond amendment.

As I said, they would be passing an act to DEFEND the Second Amendment from those states that have traditionally chosen to attack it. They would be forcing those states to accept it. Imagine, if you will, if California or Massachusetts or Illinois or any other state decided tomorrow that they were no longer going to allow you to say anything negative about the state government, that you could no longer go to a Baptist (or other) church, or that you would have to move out of your house so that soldiers could stay there, or that because they thought you had committed a crime, they should throw you in jail for few months or years...should the federal government allow them to do that? Or pass an act defending your rights?

I believe the current bill is based on the commerce clause – language to the effect that it applies to guns that have traveled in interstate commerce.

You are mistaken.

From the Gun Owners of America website:

http://www.gunowners.org/109anatb.htm

H.R. 1243 (Hostettler): This bill would establish a national right to concealed carry for (1) persons with concealed carry licenses, and (2) persons from states like Vermont and Alaska which allow concealed carry without licenses.
 
Anyone ever wonder if we gun supporters get too bogged down in politics and supporting politician A,B or C or supporting legislative act X Y OR Z that we miss the big picture of preserving liberty as a whole?

Bogged down in detail to a fault? I think it's more than that.

I think that there is a bigger picture where the RKBA (2nd), the separation of State/federal powers (10th), and the whole USBOR are ingredients in a recipe for free government ... and the problem is that many people do not find free government to be palatable. I don't think they just get lost in the recipe, I think they don't like the recipe ... but they praise the ingredients.
 
I like that line, " You take what you can get and then go back for more"...
Thats just what the anti 2A's have been doing for years. Float a couple dozen anti firearms laws, maybe get one passed. Call it a victory and come back next session for more. The proverbial death by a thousand cuts. Only
problem is once they succeed in killing the right to arms they will not be satisfied. They will keep looking for something else to "control". It's almost like a genetic weakness to destroy freedom and self reliance.
 
Harvester …

If I am wrong about the commerce clause justification for the bills, why do both the house and senate bills have the following …

“… a person may carry a concealed firearm (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce in another State if …”

Can’t just read the summary … you need to read the actuall bills.

HR 4547 and SB 3275.

I believe I am correct.
 
If I am wrong about the commerce clause justification for the bills, why do both the house and senate bills have the following …

Because you're talking about HR 4547 and SB 3275 and I'm not. I'm talking about HR 1243.

Can’t just read the summary … you need to read the actuall bills

Yes, and if you had read the full text of 1243, you would have seen that it says nothing about the commerce clause.

Sadly, 1243 (and 4547) are both stuck in committee and Hostettler lost his seat yesterday.
 
Harvester –

In my original post I was referring to HR 4547 and SB 3275 that you responded to. In any event, HR 1243 has no Senate companion and I believe it was replaced by HR 4547 which does have a Senate companion bill.

Besides, all federal statues are to be traced to a federal power – very many are justified by the commerce clause. What is the basis for HR 1243 if not the commerce clause? How do you know it is not the commerce clause? Any authority for your assertion? I could not find anything quickly.

Sadly, I doubt any such bill will even be voted on, much less pass. Senator Allen is the sponsor of SB 3275 and he most likely lost his seat yesterday as well.
 
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