Exciting (for me) magazine question

[DirtyBrad]

Just got in some 12-gauge Fiocchi 00 reduced recoil for my HD shotgun. Which is an 870 Super Mag with 18.5" barrel and 2-shot TacStar mag extension.

I noticed while loading and cycling it just now that I can fit seven shells into the magazine instead of the usual six. I compared them to some of my bird loads. The Fiocchi is slightly shorter, such that six shells of it stacked up are about 3/4" shorter than six of the bird.

When I first got the mag extension, I noticed that I could fit seven shells in, but the click from the last one wasn't quite the same - not as positive. I never did it, but now it seems like I can. The seventh round goes in nicely and there's still a bit of give left in the mag spring.

So, am I safe doing this? Haven't had it to the range yet, but everything feels good and it manually cycles just fine.

Am I killing the mag spring or anything? I'd love to have one more round at hand, but my first goal for my HD guns is reliability, so I don't want to be doing this if I'm going to be jeopardizing that. If it makes any difference, I change my springs about once a year. Also, I keep it loaded pretty much all the time.

Thanks.

 

[DirtyBrad]

Really, nobody? No one wants me to carry eight rounds?

 

[Dave McCracken]

See how it works for at least 200 rounds before betting your life on it. Some fast drills and COFs are called for when breaking in ANY "Serious" firearm.

IF they cycle perfectly and pattern well, the extra round is a bonus.

FWIW, the two shot extension on my HD 870 has been been kept loaded to capacity minus 1 since about 1980. Works perfectly. YMMV.

 

[DirtyBrad]

Thanks, Dave. That sounds like a plan.

Man, I get eight rounds and I have another reason to get to the range.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Brad,

To quote Loius Awerbuck: "No magazine is ever big enough." The fun thing about this statement is that, after he says it as part of his class, he sets out to prove it to you. As with most things having to do with fighting shotguns, it turns out Louis is right.

Louis' point (and that of other leading shotgun instructors, which I merely echo) is that you need to learn how to combat load the thing, and spend your time and efforts working on that skill rather than trying to figure out ways to cram just one more round into an admittedly inadequate magazine. Skills are more important than hardware, in other words.

Personally I keep magazines loaded 'one down' from their rated capacity, even with standard four-round magazines. One reason for that is to leave room to load a slug into the magazine if I need it for the first round in the chamber (I keep chambers empty, magazines loaded with buckshot and Sidesaddles loaded with slugs on HD shotguns here).

The other reason for short loading the magazine is to avoid 'crunching' the magazine spring, which has been known to cause coils in the spring to overlap one another under compression and tie up the spring. This turns your repeater into a single shot unless you have an angel on your shoulder and it fixes itself or you can fix it somehow. I like to use magazine followers with 'tails' for extended magazines for that reason. Note that most problems with tubular magazine fed shotguns arise in the magazine.

Of course, YMMV. It's your gunfight after all.

hth,

lpl/nc

 

[DirtyBrad]

Lee,

Thank you for the response. I've been reading up lately on combat loading and have found a lot of your posts and Dave's very useful.

I'm certainly not trying to replace any training or ability with my extra round. I'm not a gadgets kind of guy. Just noticed that I may be getting a bonus with this one and thought I'd see if there was a downside.

If nothing else, I can load six and have the peace of mind that I'm effectively downloading by one.

Regarding the long follower, about how long would you say it needs to be on a six-shot magazine to protect the spring?

I have one last question. When doing combat reloads, how do you know when to stop loading? Are you keeping a running count or do you just load until you can't load any more?

Thank you again for the response and good information.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Regarding the long follower, about how long would you say it needs to be on a six-shot magazine to protect the spring?
-------------------------------------
I like Choate's orange followers for extended magazines, I can't recall how long they are. They 'gather' the magazine spring on a round-pointed tail and offer enough length to keep the spring from getting crunched. Some folks prefer the shorter green Wilson follower. On standard magazines I like the aluminum follower from Brownells.

I have one last question. When doing combat reloads, how do you know when to stop loading? Are you keeping a running count or do you just load until you can't load any more?
----------------------------------------------

Louis teaches to load till it won't hold any more, always making sure to get the first round into the chamber promptly no matter how you load. Some folks can keep their stuff together in a gunfight well enough to count rounds, most folks can't, according to Louis. I can't even count rounds in class, so I figure I'd be pretty hopeless at doing it in real life.

This is something Louis has changed fairly recently in his teaching. He now suggests press checking the magazine to determine its status when there is a lull in the fighting. If you feel an empty hole, you know the magazine spring is bound up and you now have a single shot. If you feel a primer, you know there is at least one round in the magazine and there should be a round in the chamber (press check the chamber to make sure). If you feel your follower you know the magazine is empty, and if the gun hasn't gone 'click' the chamber might be empty too, so press check the chamber to make certain.

Louis teaches now that it's better to load just one way, through the loading port, and not worry about mastering loading through the ejection port as well. He teaches 'load one shoot one' to keep the gun running in a pinch, after the gun goes click you either transition and use a sidearm or load two/shoot one and then go to load one shoot one to keep the gun running in sustained fire until you can load it full again.

Press check the magazine with the action closed by sliding your support hand back on the forearm until you can feel into the magazine opening with the thumb. Press check the chamber by cracking open the action using the action release and opening the bolt about an inch, then slide the support hand back and feel for a shell in place under the extractor with the little finger of the support hand (assuming a right-handed shooter).

Louis teaches loading at the shoulder keeping the shooting hand in position and letting the gun sag until some of the weight eases off, and using the support hand for loading. And he insists on your learning do all this without looking at the gun, checking shell orientation (Brass goes to the Back, Rim goes to the Rear) by feel as you load (shotgun shells will load backward into the magazine as easily as they'll load frontwards, and THAT will really tie up a gun, try it sometimes when shooting quickly isn't critical). A big advantage to the 870 is the 'ramp' that the trigger guard makes, it's like a runway right into the magazine. Start with the shell in your support hand, cupping the shell with the brass to the little finger (right handed shooter) and bring the shell onto the trigger guard about at the front of your extended trigger finger (hand finds hand easily, most people try to start loading a shell with the shell too far forward and this helps prevent that). Run the shell into the loading port by running it down the ramp on the front of the trigger guard, rotate the thumb of the support hand back to the rear of the shell and run it all the way into the magazine.

If you haven't seen it yet, put your name on the list in the Lending Library here to get Louis' video, _The Combat Shotgun_. It'll help explain this better.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

 

[DirtyBrad]

Lee,

I will look at those followers, thank you.

I wouldn't count on my ability to count rounds either. Why I ask is that with my old "standard" shells, like I said, I can squeeze seven into the mag, but the last one doesn't feel like it seats in there 100%. In the stress of a fight, I doubt I'd notice this and would possibly be encouraging a malfunction.

With the new, slightly shorter shells, the seventh loads well and the eighth goes about halfway in, making it clear that it's one too many.

A longer follower will likely cure the problem with standard shells; I'm curious to see how it affects the new ones. Trimming to a length that causes both to clearly be one too many for the magazine might be in order.

I will look into that video. I didn't even know we had a lending library. If the wait seems bad, it sounds from your recommendation like it may be one worth spending the money on.

Thank you again.