alsaqr
Member
Yes, he did do that. Bush I also did that. Neither of these executive orders have been rescinded by Bush II.
Executive Order
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Yes, he did do that. Bush I also did that. Neither of these executive orders have been rescinded by Bush II.
salthouse
Member
Everything you ever wanted to know about issued executive orders- http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/ Some interesting stuff in there.
expvideo
Member
He's president, not king. The problem is that he might think that he is king, and try to do this. Hopefully I'm not alone in saying that we as Americans would not stand for the president doing something like that. I hope for all of our sake that Obama doesn't do anything stupid that's going to start a civil war. But then again, we've gotten to a point in this country where the government can do anything they want, because the people aren't willing to stand up against it. I'm sure Obama could disassemble congress and the supreme court and claim control of the government and people still wouldn't do anything but complain. Welcome to the new America, or as I like to call it, France.
divemedic
Member
No, but an EO that orders the NICS to stop providing information would shut down firearm sales at FFLs pretty much nationwide.
Thin Black Line
Member
How many secret EOs are there already?
K3
Member
If they're secret, how would we know?
*I* know...
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill ya.
divemedic
Member
Not anymore illegal than the Bush41 EO that prevented certain firearm importations.
An Obama EO ordering the NICS unit to stop answering the phone would be similar, wouldn't it?
And exactly what purpose would that serve? People would get their gun in 3 days anyway if NICS doesn't respond.
18 USC 922(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 30 days after the Attorney General notifies licensees under section 103(d) of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act that the national instant criminal background check system is established, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, unless—
(A) before the completion of the transfer, the licensee contacts the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of that Act;
(B) (i) the system provides the licensee with a unique identification number; or (ii) 3 business days (meaning a day on which State offices are open) have elapsed since the licensee contacted the system, and the system has not notified the licensee that the receipt of a firearm by such other person would violate subsection (g) or (n) of this section
(A) before the completion of the transfer, the licensee contacts the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of that Act;
(B) (i) the system provides the licensee with a unique identification number; or (ii) 3 business days (meaning a day on which State offices are open) have elapsed since the licensee contacted the system, and the system has not notified the licensee that the receipt of a firearm by such other person would violate subsection (g) or (n) of this section
Mike U.
Member
Thank you very much, everallm.
I appreciate all the work you put into that post. WOW!
Now I feel I have a much better grasp of the Heller Decision and what it entailed.
I appreciate all the work you put into that post. WOW!
Now I feel I have a much better grasp of the Heller Decision and what it entailed.
If the NICS bureau took their phones off the hook, you would not be able to contact them. Obviously this would be a serious abuse of power, but IMO if they refused to answer the phones no lawful sales of firearms could occur until the courts intervened. That could take years.
There is no question that an evil president could do all kinds of damage if he was willing to take the political heat for it. There is also little question about whether BHO is evil or not. The question is whether he is willing to take the heat. My guess is he will start out trying to get congress to shield him from the heat.
divemedic
Member
Not really. The law says that the sale is approved 3 days after the licensee contacts the NICS. If the NICS doesn't answer the phone, there has been no contact.
Look, I am not saying that this is the route an EO would take, because Obama can think of some really inventive ways to do this. All I am saying is that EO's are directives from the Chief Executive to Federal departments. I am sure ATF can think of ways to make this happen with a creative EO.
And if the government has procured the unavailability of the system by means of an EO ordering such, the government cannot simultaneously claim the system was available, working, and should/could have been contacted, nor could they claim it was an occurence beyond their control such as a failure of the telecoms. IOW, if the government abandons their duties under the law, it would be an uphill battle to hold dealers or individuals liable for non-compliance with an abandoned system. Further, if the system is not operating (as it would not be if an EO caused it to not receive calls), the dealer can still transfer the firearm pursuant to 18 USC 922(t)(5).
Additionally, there are a number of states that don't use NICS, but have opted to use their own state system. An EO would not cover that.
divemedic
Member
I agree with you, but how long do you think that argument will take to make it through the courts? 3 years? 4? 5? and what laws do you think can be passed in the meantime?
The EO gives the Obama administration an immediate result, to be backed up by legislation at a later date.
Not long, since the minute a dealer would transfer a firearm without the check the government would probably want to make a move. Such a case would start in federal court where a TRO could issue, forcing the government to act quickly. Moreover I doubt the government would want to risk such a tremendous loss, since its highly doubtful they could prevail besed upon those facts. Still, its worth noting that the chance of this actually happening is, well... nil.
Of course if this is really a concern to you, you may as well also tighten down the chinstrap on the tinfoil helmet and worry that the government could institute a $.01 per gun annual tax in the tax code, but not provide a form to report and pay, so all gun owners would instantly become felons by tax evasion. I mean, its just as plausable...in theory.
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there are other ways to contact. it does not state that it has to be a phone contact. i would just send a certified letter to the office that handles this stuff. that could be considered contacting the system the second that letter is received. then there is a chance even if they see that it should be denied that they could not reply by mail within 3 days to deny it. if they were to call the store and deny it then you got them on the phone and proceed to initiate another contact for another customer. the second you say on the phone to the person over the ncis "i have an application for you to review" that is contacting them. if they hang up you still contacted them.
a store that did this would probably get checked (raided) by an BATF officer the next day, but you might be able to get a legal picture perfect case to challenge the system if they claimed you violated the law doing this.
divemedic
Member
All I was trying to point out was that there are ways in which an Obama administration could use an EO to affect gun control. Don't think it can't happen. Maybe not the specific EO I talked about, but using an EO for gun control is possible. Instituting a tax on firearms is also possible, but could not be done by EO, which is the topic of this thread.
Calling me names and trying to attack me personally is rather low road. I will keep quiet on the rest of my comments, so as to avoid getting the thread locked.
Thin Black Line
Member
Right. And there are already secret EOs "on the books". It amuses me how
ppl here keep going on and on about the "legality" of an open source EO,
but they wouldn't be able to put a secret EO under public scrutiny.
No. If you were on the inside, it would ruin your career and you'd go to jail.
Most ppl can't violate this by stuffing classified documents in their pants,
walk out of a building with them, get caught, and somehow not go to jail and
still retain their security clearance. [And who was that person I'm referring
to, class? Anyone know, class? Ah, yes, the crickets are still chirping....]
All the next president has to do is make a secret EO involving "small arms
and domestic terrorists" and use the mechanisms already in place. Average
Joe Shmo Six-Pack only notices that certain things just aren't on the shelves
anymore. He shrugs his shoulders, says there must be a "shortage" and off
he goes to do whatever else in his life. Given the coming economy, that
will probably mean standing in line for filing for unemployment or a soup
kitchen rather than going to the range anyway.
I mentioned this before: certain imported semi-auto firearms have been
banned by a previous prez, it's no problem to ban imported mil ammo. Try
spending a day at the range when x39/x51/x54 is $30/box, your mortgage
just reset and you're facing a lay-off next year. Most people are going to
be begging the nanny-state to "fix" things for them next year.
And that doesn't even have to be done with a secret EO anyway.
So why all the posturing on this thread about the supposed "legality" anyway?
Someone mentioned elsewhere on THR that we didn't get where we are today
because gun-owners weren't energized, it was everyone else who was more
focused on other things. IMHO, perception of retaining their "rights" was
very low on the list.
The President cannot make a new law through Executive Order. Executive Orders are new regulatory interpretations of existing statutes. For example, the President could sign an executive order further restricting the importation of foreign-made firearms because the "sporting purpose" provision already exists in the Gun Control Act of 1968. The President is just adding a new regulation to a authority that already exists.
Oh please...
It wasn't a personal attack; it was a lighthearted attempt, however ineloquent, to point out that this scenario (Obama issuing an EO to shut down the NICS system in an attempt to put an end to gun sales) is about as far fetched and improbable as you can get. I certainly didn't mean to offend you, and if you took offense I do apologize. I'll admit I do enjoy arguing the theoretical issues for a bit, but I'd rank this with a national confiscation of all guns, re-education camps, and zombie attacks in terms of the probability of actually happening.
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