Expansion Velocity????

[Telum Pisces]

I am on a reloading kick right now where I am trying to lower the felt recoil for a lot of my rifles. I am doing this mostly for my younger kiddos. I want them to get better shots with lower felt recoil etc...

With that said, is there any published data out there that shows the minimum velocity that bullets will expand? Why is this not something that is published by the bullet manufacturers?

I am loading up some 300 Blackout rounds and I read where the black tip 110gr Barnes bullets are meant to expand at lower than typical velocities and is designed for the 300 Blackout mostly. I am trying to find other bullets I can use for this application as well. But finding published data for this seems to be hard to find out.

 

[fxvr5]

Ask the bullet manufacturers.

 

[243winxb]

Varmint bullets expand sooner. https://www.sierrabullets.com/product-tag/blitzking/

Hornady varmint bullets https://www.hornady.com/bullets/

Reduced loades, Google Hodgdon Youth Loads with H4895 powder. https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/low-recoil-loads

 

[buck460XVR]

Most hunting bullets have a wide band of velocity vs expansion. While a 30-06 bullet is expected to expand at 2900fps @ 50 yards, it is also expected to expand somewhat at it's velocity @ 250 yards.......(about 1800FPS). Softening recoil also shortens effective range. So a kid shooting @ 100 yards should still have some kind of expansion.

 

[Gooseman69]

Federal terminal accent ammo will expand down to velocities as low as 1,350 fps

 

[film495]

don't worry about it to do target practice and have them develop the skills, whatever is a load in spec to published load data, have them get used to it, expansion doesn't really matter for that. Load up some mouse farts, and let them just have fun and get used to it, and see if it works for them or not. for actual hunting, maybe work them up to livelier loads, but - a coat, or a shoulder pad makes a huge difference.

 

[jmr40]

Why is this not something that is published by the bullet manufacturers?

Most of them do, you may just have to look for it. From Nosler's website with the Accubond. There isn't much difference between manufacturers. Just about any premium bonded bullet will be very similar.



Nosler's E-Tip. Basically, any solid copper bullet will do about the same.



In a nutshell most pointed cup and core bullets are good between about 1800-2800 fps. Those numbers aren't carved in stone but are approximate. There may be small differences between different manufacturers and calibers. If you want impact speeds above 2800 fps, then you want a premium bullet like the 2 above.

Barnes, and other copper bullet makers claim they expand down to 1800 fps, but I don't like what I see at 1800 fps. Most people like 2000+ with copper and the graphic above seems to show why.

Some of the RN bullets are designed for 30-30 velocities and will expand at lower speeds. As will most bullets designed for handguns.

The 300 BO is challenging. Most of the lighter bullets that will get you to the speed needed to expand are really designed for varmints and don't penetrate well. The heavier bullets will never get enough speed to expand. I think most guys just go with the heavier bullets and try to get the best penetration and don't worry about expansion.

There are others out there more familiar than I, but there have been some bullets made recently designed specifically to expand at 300 BO speeds.

 

[Varminterror]

is there any published data out there that shows the minimum velocity that bullets will expand? Why is this not something that is published by the bullet manufacturers?

Many bullet manufacturers do list minimum expansion velocity for their bullets, and all of them will offer that info readily with a simple phone call.

 

[Slamfire]

Varmint bullets expand sooner. https://www.sierrabullets.com/product-tag/blitzking/

Hornady varmint bullets https://www.hornady.com/bullets/

Reduced loades, Google Hodgdon Youth Loads with H4895 powder. https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/low-recoil-loads

I did not find expansion velocity limits or data on those pages. They are not interested in revealing that, which makes me wonder, do they test their bullets for expansion at all?

 

[gwpercle]

Do a search on the term : Hodgdon H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads
it will bring you to the site for Youth Hunting Loads ... these are safe and tested loads ...also some for target shooting and plinking ...great for practice .
Gary

 

[25-20 WCF]

The dirty little secret is - what does “minimum expansion” really mean? A flattened nose only slightly larger than bullet diameter? Twice bullet diameter? And is 15” of ballistic gel (or several water jugs) the same as 15” of hair and rib meat and lung tissue (which, BTW, is mostly air)? No, but it sells a lot of bullets.

As far as calling the bullet makers, consider this. A decade ago I called Hornady’s tech line to ask about the expansion of a specific XTP handgun bullet. The self-absorbed tech expert who answered said he had that exact bullet on his desk at that moment, and it showed classic expansion. When I asked him about the actual impact velocity window he said ‘well, that is listed in the Hornady manual’. Of course the manual lists muzzle velocity, not impact velocity. After receiving similarly BS responses from two of Sierra’s tech “experts”, I no longer have any faith in information I get from a ‘phone call’ to the bullet makers. Might as well just search YouTube for the answer….




.

 

[wvfarrier]

Ive had absolutely fantastic results with the 130 grain and 110 grain varminter projectiles from 300 AAC velocities. They act more like HPs at the slower velocities.

 

[243winxb]

Youtube may be of some help?

Hornady? https://www.hornady.com/bullets/sub-x#!/

SUB-X®
Hornady.com » Bullets » Sub-X®
Reliable subsonic expansion
Sub-X® (Subsonic — eXpanding) bullets deliver big results without a big bang! Designed to provide deep penetration below the speed of sound, Sub-X® features a lead core. Long grooves in its gilding metal jacket combine with its flat profile and the patented Flex Tip® insert within the bullet’s hollowpoint cavity to help it expand reliably at low velocities. Cannelures provide positive case crimp, making Sub-X® ideal for semiautomatic weapons.

FIND A RETAILER

Patented Flex Tip® technology aids in expansion at velocities as low as 900 fps. https://www.hornady.com/bullets/sub-x#!/ Watch Videos. New in 2020.

 

[243winxb]

Hodgdon has 8 different powders for the Hornady 190 gr Sub-X bullet in 300 AAC blk out. https://shop.hodgdon.com/reloading-...62.322703091.1614114333-1613072657.1607169813

There is also 308 Winchester load data for Sub-X , with 4 powders around 1040 fps.

 

[Telum Pisces]

Thank you all. As with anything, the answer is "it depends!"

 

[Varminterror]

Maybe some folks are better than others at realizing whether they have the right person on the other end of the line.

 

[wvfarrier]

Another bullet that works really well is the Speer 130 Spire Point.

 

[buck460XVR]

A decade ago I called Hornady’s tech line to ask about the expansion of a specific XTP handgun bullet. The self-absorbed tech expert who answered said he had that exact bullet on his desk at that moment, and it showed classic expansion. When I asked him about the actual impact velocity window he said ‘well, that is listed in the Hornady manual’. Of course the manual lists muzzle velocity, not impact velocity

He may have been referring to this. It is in my Hornady manual.........

 

[rbernie]

Ask the bullet manufacturers.

I have had very good luck simply calling the customer support line for a given bullet manufacturer and asking them the minimum and maximum expansion velocity for a specific SKU. They have always found an answer for me.

 

[Random 8]

You can get all the theories you want, either from forums like this or from bullet manufacturers themselves. Most of those will be exactly that, theories. Until a specific bullet is tested on a specific target at a specific impact velocity, it is all guesswork.

We can draw some useful conclusions from the original design intent of the bullet. There are some out there designed specifically for the Blackout and 30-30. Also those designed specifically for varmint shooting tend to have rapid expansion, although often times "sharp" bullet profiles are quite velocity dependent to open up, and can go from violent to pencil through in a very narrow window.

Your best bet would be to grab some likely suspects and put them through various soft targets at your target velocities. I would look to the round or flat pointed bullets designed for .30-30 in the 150 grain or less range or the .300 BO bullets if you're running under 2000fps. Also the Hornady Flex tip of the same application, possibly the .300 Savage version as well depending on what you're feeding.

I've also found the Rem, Speer, and PRVI 110 gr RNSP bullets intended for .30 Carbine to be reliable expanders on non-game animals at velocities under 2000FPS. I am loading these for the same application as you in a 30-06 bolt action over pistol powders. They do dual purpose on varmints, and I can tell you they light up a crow at 150 yards still.

 

[wvfarrier]

This was a 300 Blackout using a 130 gr Varminter pushed by a stout load of Lil Gun. Just under 50 yards. Needless to say the deer was DRT. Rem 700 with 16" barrel.

 

[Telum Pisces]

In the world of bullets and powders, and different mediums that exist in animals, I know there is no absolutes. I was just on the lookout for some general guidelines for different bullets. I load for .308, 30-06, and 300 blackout in terms of .30 caliber rifle rounds. I know that my 180 - 220 grain bullets meant for my .308 and 30-06 might not be the best hunting bullets in my 300 blackout since most of them are meant to expand at higher velocities. I purposely have the 110 and 120 grain Barnes Tac-Tx for this. I have loaded, used the 110 grain Hornady V-Max as well. I shot a doe with one already this year and it did great! I didn't recover the bullet. It was a pass through right behind the front shoulder. Deer went only 25 yards and piled up.

I was just after some general guidance on other bullets that might work (expand to kill deer) at 1800 - 2300 FPS for the 300 Blackout. Again, not looking for the absolutes. Just wondering why bullet manufactures don't publish such data.