FBI going back to 9mm

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(Not sure if this has been posted before or if this is the right section for it)

FBI going back to 9mm

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/08/robert-farago/9mm-wins-caliber-wars/

The article says that the FBI is going back to 9mm and dropping the .40 S&W since the frame is smaller and that means better control for more accurate shooting and to make different agencies use one caliber.


"On July 25, 2014, the Federal Bureau of Investigation released a pre-solicitation notice for a family of pistols chambered in 9mm "
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In the government , the pendulum always swings from one end to the other. One or two well publicized failure to stops that results in bodily injury to the agents, and BAM, back to the 10mm.
 
In the government , the pendulum always swings from one end to the other. One or two well publicized failure to stops that results in bodily injury to the agents, and BAM, back to the 10mm.
I agree. They could just load the .40 DOWN a bit in power, pressure, and recoil, and vola, they don't have to buy new guns or mags.

But hey, it's only taxpayers money, right?

Deaf
 
The article says that the FBI is going back to 9mm and dropping the .40 S&W ... to make different agencies use one caliber.
I'm not quite understanding this. How does the FBI switching to 9mm "make different agencies use one caliber"? Maybe it's just the way it's phrased, but I'm not connecting with what you're/they're trying to say.

Also, this was discussed here, but it's becoming dormant at this point.
 
Sidearms are so infrequently used in the FBI that it makes sense.

It will presumably save 15% or something like that in ammo costs, which amounts to massive savings (tens of millions of dollars) over the long term.

It's not like 9mm isn't lethal. An individual bullet may be marginally less effective, but with modern HP ammo, they are quite lethal.

With serious budget shortfalls combined with modern ammunition and high capacity magazines, it makes sense.

Besides, handgun shootouts are so rare... sure, they can happen. But generally the FBI is going to be able to access long guns and be ready for a gunfight, unlike a civilian carrying concealed and surprised by an armed criminal.
 
Topic....

yes, this same topic has been posted.
The US armed forces are also looking for a new sidearm. It may not be a 9x19mm but will be a new firearm. The M9 is now considered out-dated and in need of replacement.

The FBI has budget & $$$ woes too. I'm sure going to 9x19mm was discussed by the budget office & mgmt. :rolleyes:

A few other large LE agencies went from .40S&W/.357sig/.45acp to 9x19mm.
The LA sheriffs office went to M&Ps, the Texas DPS converted to 9x19mm too but the plan was changed due to issues with the duty pistols. From what I know the Texas officials returned to the P226R .357sig models but still want to switch to 9mm.
The NYPD has used the Speer Gold Dot 124gr 9x19mm for many years. The Orlando FL police has issued the SIG P226 9mm since 1990. They use the potent 127gr +P+ JHP from Winchester. The New Mexico State Police went to the 9x19mm & the Military and Police full size.
 
On another site people who claim to be in the know swear that the FBI is switching to some as yet unseen proprietary 9mm round with ballistics between the 40 and 45. That hardly sounds like an attempt to reduce recoil or expense.
 
FBI can use HPs, and uses sidearms much less than military members in combat zones.

The FBI uses a sidearm as daily carry, the military uses the M16 and variants as it's primary firearm for personal defense. In the average combat unit, very few use the sidearm as their primary weapon. Most of the time it's issued for personal carry outside a combat zone.

Even the MP's rack the M9 and use M16/M4's in combat. So, on a daily basis, the FBI is more likely to have to use their sidearm than someone in the military. They carry on duty - the military only carries in a combat zone, at home, not at all, for months at a time. Soldiers aren't issued weapons unless they are scheduled to shoot. It's a highly controlled exercise, too, and on post, soldiers can't carry personal weapons during the day, either. Exactly why the Ft. Hood shootings were so successful - it's as bad on post as in a school or at the Mall. One big victim zone, and it's not going to change.

The FBI changing back to 9mm just reflects the reality that it's not the same ammo that lost the Miami shootout, or even that the incident should have had the effect it did, and that the results are more fully understood. As for the military looking into replacing a service pistol, it's mostly issued to officers in units, the MP's carry it as a peacetime duty gun to signify their authority, and very few ever draw and shoot it outside the range - because it's almost nobody's primary combat weapon. Entirely why the few who would get to purchase exactly what they want for that limited number of situations.

The military will likely choose a weapon more based on political and social constraints than efficiency, the Beretta was chosen because we had a refueling port in the Med in Italy, and a parachute regiment stationed there. Plus - the trials were held at a time when Glock wasn't yet ready to submit, being in their infancy. Glocks are now purchased and issued to some units.

Being a service pistol, it will be large frame double stack double action with redundant safeties and a 25 year service life expected. Entirely off the reservation for the FBI, who would likely prefer something smaller, potentially slimmer, who carry under jackets or concealed, and have fewer institutional traditions to overcome.
 
Personally I couldn't care less if the FBI chose to carry squirt guns. Their track record over the last few decades has not been terribly impressive IMO. And the military is NOT restricted to FMJ rounds. And never were. We did not sign the Hague Accord Treaty. They use FMJ rounds for feed reliability. Besides if you are using a .50 BMG round (classified as an anti aircraft/anti materiel round) for anti personnel use then any discussion of FMJ/HP rounds is kind of absurd. They SHOULD (and are) allowed to use whatever gets the job done, period.
 
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FBI to 9mm... and Army from 9mm to .40 SW. Nevermind the rhetoric in this link, but IMO a lot of needless change is done for the sake of self-justification by those in authority lest they be perceived as doing nothing. (Perhaps the best example is the endless parade of "programs" in public education -- which are costly and serve as a smoke screen for failure to identify/implement effective solutions.)

http://kitup.military.com/2014/07/army-40-caliber-fbi-returns-9mm.html
 
Topics, posts....

All of these remarks & subjects were brought up in other forum posts in other ways.
It's fine to discuss the topic, but it can also drift or slide 100 different ways. :rolleyes:
I'm not a FBI special agent or 083 police officer, yes, the FBI does have it's own small police force. :D

I can understand how & why, the "Bureau" wants new 9x19mm duty pistols.
Agents & federal employees come in all shapes and sizes. They can't use high powered 10mm or .45acp size pistols.

I think Glock or SIG Sauer will have a lock on the new FBI sidearms for 2015 +.
Glock USA seems to meet all the listed requirements in terms of size, training models(simmuntion), function, magazine capacity, available parts/armorer training, etc.
I worked with a local sheriff's deputy(agency has approx 1200 sworn deputies) on a security detail who informed me the entire agency will soon be upgraded to the Glock generation 04 series. They use the .45acp mostly but some detectives and supervisors use compact 9mm & .40 sidearms.
I currently own a LE trade in Glock 21 .45acp & it's fine. :D
I've owned 02 M&Ps too and they had 0 problems but I'm not in a big rush to buy a new M&P .45acp model.
 
It's about "creating jobs".
Yup. Whenever I hear about these; boards, trials, studies, recommendations, rumors, etc... I think about who is it at what level of government that is trying to pad their own nest or help a buddy out for later pay-back.

Even when the discussion is valid, I assume it is artificially drawn out at our expense to provide cover for the sham. Not to mention that this is a scenario some folks can make an entire career out of... ammo studies, firearm studies, capacity studies...

Should they have nines? Sure, if only to gain some commonality with the military for ball ammo for training and sustainment.

My only problem is; if they finally go to nines after spending millions (what ammo/what gun) in "fact finding"... Sure as baby rabbits, we'll be having this discussion several years later over the gun, the projectiles, the caliber - whatever it takes to open Pandora's fiscal box again.
 
IMO a lot of needless change is done for the sake of self-justification by those in authority lest they be perceived as doing nothing.
I understand your sentiment, but consider a scenario when things are going great:

"Things are awesome the way they are, guys. So for the last few years of my office, I've done nothing!" :D :D ... :eek: ... :uhoh:

The point is, if keeping my job was contingent on my ability to demonstrate changes I put into motion, I'd be changing everything I could to justify my employment. Even if things were perfect, you couldn't just sit there and bask in the glory of perfection, or you'd be canned.
 
I still think I would rather hit them with a .40 cal than a 9mm. But then, I couldn't stand it when they dropped the 10mm for .40.
 
Beretta M9; 1985-2016.....

The Beretta M9 9mmNATO had a 30-32 year run. ;)
That is a respectable amount of time for a weapon system to be fielded.
The M9 will continue to be used by armed forces troops for a few more years.
The reserves & NG units might keep them longer too.

If the FBI picks new 9x19mm pistols, I'd think that they would issue them for a long, long time.
 
The point is, if keeping my job was contingent on my ability to demonstrate changes I put into motion, I'd be changing everything I could to justify my employment. Even if things were perfect, you couldn't just sit there and bask in the glory of perfection, or you'd be canned.

Sure, until it comes to wasting millions?, 10s of millions?, more?... of taxpayers money. Your money, my money and the money from that guy over there.

Principles matter, in all senses of the word.
 
Millions in waste?....

As noted in a few other topics/forum messages the FBI is almost broke. :rolleyes:
They shut down the training academy due to a lack of $$$.
A LE agency that can even staff-train new special agents on a regular basis isn't going to start a racket spending $$$ on new weapons or budget items.

The military is the same way. The MHS program may seem like a lot of bureaucratic waste but this doesn't mean the DoD/armed forces are going to commit or spend $$$ on new sidearms.
President Obama or SECDEF Hagel can stop the MHS program in a second. :rolleyes:
Beretta USA & SIG Sauer had new firearm contracts with the armed forces thru 2016-2018.
They still get $$$ and the troops still get new pistols/spare parts.
 
As interested firearms users everyone here will look at the various advantages and disadvantages of sidearms for this agency -but that's rarely the only consideration....

Unfortunately, politics, funding, and a lot of other stuff will also be involved. I hope that their agents will end up with good, servicable weapons.
 
... The article says that the FBI is going back to 9mm and dropping the .40 S&W since the frame is smaller and that means better control for more accurate shooting ...

I think the intent was that since most 9/.40 pistols offered by major makers of guns bought by LE are the same size, similarly sized 9mm magazines will generally hold a couple more rounds than a similarly sized .40 magazine.

... They could just load the .40 DOWN a bit in power, pressure, and recoil, and vola, they don't have to buy new guns or mags.

They've already been down that road. They originally requested a couple of ammo companies down-load a couple of 165gr hollowpoint loads in the early years of the cartridge's adoption by them. Didn't seem to do what they desired.

Also, they've run their existing G22/23's quite a while, and after a while it's often easier to replace service weapons than continue trying to maintain them.

Besides, there's a very good chance that if they can trade-in their existing inventory, whatever they buy next will probably turn out to be pretty affordable. ;)

Also, there's the consideration that their ammo costs may reflect a bit of a savings going from .40 back to 9mm. (Granted, they've been buying 9mm ammo for training/duty for existing 9mm weapons, albeit in much smaller quantities.)

Based upon some of what's been released here & there, it seems their firearms training staff (including armorers) have had input into this pending change. They're not known for exactly rushing into things, you know. ;)
 
.40S&W loads in US law enforcement use.....

In the go-go 1990s & 2000s, many US police agencies, big & small used 155-165 grain JHP .40S&W with great results.
I recall a gun magazine article(LE industry column) saying the 165gr JHP used by the sworn officers had a 95/96% documented one-shot stop rating & feed flawlessly in the duty pistol. I think it was the Golden Saber 165gr JHP brand.

To me, .40s are fine & nearly any serious gunner or cop can learn to properly.

I owned a Beretta 96D with Robar NP3. It was a surplus gun from a state LE agency. The weight & large size was a - but it wasn't a marksmanship or training issue.
 
I think we should all abandon everything but the 9mm for self-defense pistols and to devil with any concerns about effectiveness. It would be great for the country as whole since all the time we spend debating the merits of calibers could be spent on more productive activities. We might even raise the nation's GDP.
 
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