fixed Sights

[ZVP]

Revolvers have come with fixed sights since their inception and I am sure that more than a few weren't exactly right-on. Owners had to either deal with where they shot or try and fix them to hit where they were aimed.
I own 3 revolvers with fixed sights, a S&W Model 36, a S&W Model 10 and a Ruger Vaquero .357 Mag. The little "Chief" is a little high and to the right (Im leaving that one alone as it's set up DA only and not for plinking or targets. It shoots plenty close to POA.

The Model 10 is right on using 158 gr biullets @15 yards I just got this one and am still learning to shoot it.If I shoot any of the 125gr Personal Defense ammo, the POA is pretty close ti centered but it shoots a little low. Not enough to worry about in any situation though! I don't think this one will need any sight mods, I just need to get familliar with shooting a meduim D/A revolver and matching ammo to it for the preformance I want.
The Ruger was a Lemon at first! I had to send it back to the factory for what ended up being a total rebuild and getting a free custom factory tune in the process! I'd complained about the gun shooting "off" the sights and Ruger modified the front sight height plus slightly opened the notch up. Since I did a tiny bit more filing and got the sight centered with it's most used ammo Ewmington 158 gr Lead RN. Suprisingly, .357 mags shoot so darn close to the sight picture that it's like it was planned! The amount of metl that I removed was so miniscule that I could have not messed with it.
I have since really worked with the Ruger allowing for lock time (just holding my sight picture a tad longer and holding an extra second for follow-through. Latly and since I have really tried at it, my geoups hve improved!
I wonder if back in the "old days" shooters did the same as I have done with slowing themselves down with their "Hold"? Or? Did they try and compensate by holding a little off to get hits?
I doubt shooters invested in piles of ammunition as I have?
Did the oldtime shooters burn up ammo like we do today? I am sure the wanna-be and "real" Gunfighters did but what about the average cowboy?
Ya wonder about these kind of things. Were they as dedicated to shooting as we are today?
I guess there were "gin nuts" back then also...
BPDave

 

[bubba in ca]

Well, my step father grew up in the Texas Panhandle in the 30s. He said the old cowboys didn`t own a gun because they couldn`t afford one. If somebody had a gun, he could barely afford the bullets, so he kept his gun wrapped up in an oiled rag and rarely shot it. It didn`t sound like a real Hollywood type of existence.

In the pioneer days, I think carbines and shotguns won the west.

 

[Fiv3r]

I would assume those who shot probably did more of a point shoot than one for precision. Even with rudimentary sights it's pretty easy to keep a revolver with a longer barrel in the kill zone at combat ranges. I would imagine any long range shooting was done with a rifle.

 

[MartinS]

Since we're doing Iwouldimagines why not imagine that they would react and do as you did?

 

[ultramag44]

I'm R handed, but L eye dominate. I'm also tall & ugly, but that's not important.

With a fix sight revolver, I tend to shoot L & L. I simply hold R & high.
With a little practice, it's fairly easy to hit the 100 yard silhouette steel targets.

 

[BlindJustice]

Is the S&W Model 58 4" Bbbl. .41 Mag revolver
the only post WWII with fixed sights? Guess there was
the 1950 .45 ACP 4" Bbl. model but I can't recall any others.
The 58 looks like a Model 10 on Steroids.

I've considered the following for my Model 60
3" bbl. with the adj. W&E rear sight.
Here's two fixed rear sights which
replace the S&W W&E Adj. rear sight.

Bowen Classic Arms RoughCOuntry Rear sight

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-pa...olver-rough-country-rear-sight-prod31965.aspx

Cylinder & Slide Extreme Duty Rear sight

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=ExtremeDuty

Since they come in various heights, and sets you would
specify what load is most often used to match up front and rear and
get it sighted in.

Randall

 

[SwampWolf]

Is the S&W Model 58 4" Bbbl. .41 Mag revolver
the only post WWII with fixed sights? Guess there was
the 1950 .45 ACP 4" Bbl. model but I can't recall any others.

Well, just about every major handgun manufacturer has made post WII fixed sight revolvers, including Colt, Ruger, S&W, Taurus, Beretta and Charter Arms, and most still do.

 

[BlindJustice]

I meant ONLY S&W N frame
S&W Small and MEdium framed revolvers with
fixed sights are abundant no so with the N Frames

R-

 

[TestPilot]

In this day and time, it is a manufacturing integrity issue.

If the multiple M&P40s I have with a non-fixed barrel and front and rear sight being pressed in the slide without zeroing procedure can hit near the exact point of aim at 35 yards straight from the factory, there is simply no excuse for revolver makers to have any less standard.

My GP100 3 inch with fixed sight hit too far to the right, and the barrel being tilted to the right was visible in plane sight. Ruger rep told me that the barrel was "under torqued," and Ruger fixed it for me. Now the horizontal aim is right on. However, the front sight is still too tall. I have to aim about 6 inch high at 35 yards in order to hit where I want. Not too bad for defensive use at 25m and closer, but still annoying.

Some day revolvers tend to have tall front sight to compensate for muzzle rise while the bullet is traveling down the barrel, but I call BS on that. May be not total BS, but the degree is too much.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My old carry revolver shot a few inches high and 4" to 5" inches to the left. I practiced shooting with the appropriate adjustments in mind.

My current carry, a M442 is just about POA=POI with Speer 135gr ammo.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I'm sure these people had as broad a spectrum of shooters as we do nowadays.

They would have either fixed their sights manually or compensated knowing how they shot for a given sight picture. And they would have practiced at least enough to become as proficient at the use of their weapons as they deemed necessary.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm sure these people had as broad a spectrum of shooters as we do nowadays.

They would have either fixed their sights manually or compensated knowing how they shot for a given sight picture. And they would have practiced at least enough to become as proficient at the use of their weapons as they deemed necessary.

I think you're right but then again, I did read the common Cowboy didn't carry a revolver all that much because of what was said above, they couldn't afford one. The Cowboy on the range probably had a levergun on the side of his saddle but that's about it. Farmers had shotguns too.

 

[BCRider]

.....Some (s)ay revolvers tend to have tall front sight to compensate for muzzle rise while the bullet is traveling down the barrel, but I call BS on that. May be not total BS, but the degree is too much.

The sights are set like that for a lot of reasons. And before we get into them consider for a moment that when the guns are shot with the ammo the guns were set up for that they shoot very well in MOST cases.

So why the big angle? For starters a revolver doesn't have a slide and barrel that moves separately from the frame and hands holding the gun. And since recoil begins at the same time that the bullet begins to move out of the casing the recoil response in a revolver is instant. However on a semi auto the recoil is also instant but there's a little time where the slide and barrel only move. And the recoil impulse is only transferred to the hand through the recoil spring until the slide hits some rearward stop. But the bullet is long gone by that time.

Anyway, so the revolver begins to recoil at the exact same instant as the bullet begins to move in the chamber.

On top of this a revolver typically has the bore axis located much further above the grip support than we see on a semi auto. So there's also more leverage to work at lifting the muzzle that much higher. A good example of how important this is can be seen on small and large derringer style guns. I've shot a Bond Arms gun and the difference in impact point of the upper and lower barrel is HUGE even at shorter distances. As I recall the sights were sort of useful for the lower barrel. But the upper had to be aimed literally about a foot low even at 5 yards out to get the second hole to be somewhere near the first. Or it may have been the other way around. But whatever. The point is that just the difference in bore axis height produced around a 12 inch difference in POI at 5 to 7 yards.

Put these two basics together and it's no wonder the sight plane is so angled compared to the bore axis.

Semis do this too. But for the recoil absorption reasons mentioned they don't do it as much. But I do find that my semis shoot a little lower when using light bullets at fast speeds than they do with big heavy bullets at lower speeds.

So the effect is real and it is why the sights on revolvers are so out of line with the bore axis.

 

[LAGS]

Fixed sights can be Re- Worked to get closer to POA.
Guns with Fixed sights are generally for short range and can be Filed, Welded or modified fairly easy.
I had to file the top of the front sight on my S&W M-64 .010 to get it to stop shooting low.
Another pistol I had to file one side of the front blade, and the orher side of the rear sight notch to correct a Horizontal issue.
Front sight blades can also be welded up or built up with Front sight insert material to correct a High shooting gun.

 

[SwampWolf]

I had to file the top of the front sight on my S&W M-64 .010 to get it to stop shooting low.

Good luck if a fixed-sight handgun is shooting high. Files don't help and adding material to the front sight is a real chore.

 

[LAGS]

@ Swamp Wolf,
You can silver solder a peice to the top of many sights, and then file it down to the right height rather then welding on the front sight blade.
Silver solder uses a lot less heat, and is more forgiving.
But depending on the gun, you can also remove the front blade on some, and make a taller replacement blade.
There is also the option to remove the blade down to the base, and then make a replacement blade that is silver soldered in to a machined groove, or if there is some kind of ramp base, machine a groove into the ramp, and use a cross pin to hold on the new blade.
It just depends on how much time and effort you want to expend, your skill level, or how much it is worth to pay someone else to fix it for you.
I have had to replace many Damaged front sights in the same manor too.

 

[TestPilot]

The sights are set like that for a lot of reasons. And before we get into them consider for a moment that when the guns are shot with the ammo the guns were set up for that they shoot very well in MOST cases.

So why the big angle? For starters a revolver doesn't have a slide and barrel that moves separately from the frame and hands holding the gun. And since recoil begins at the same time that the bullet begins to move out of the casing the recoil response in a revolver is instant. However on a semi auto the recoil is also instant but there's a little time where the slide and barrel only move. And the recoil impulse is only transferred to the hand through the recoil spring until the slide hits some rearward stop. But the bullet is long gone by that time.

Anyway, so the revolver begins to recoil at the exact same instant as the bullet begins to move in the chamber.

On top of this a revolver typically has the bore axis located much further above the grip support than we see on a semi auto. So there's also more leverage to work at lifting the muzzle that much higher. A good example of how important this is can be seen on small and large derringer style guns. I've shot a Bond Arms gun and the difference in impact point of the upper and lower barrel is HUGE even at shorter distances. As I recall the sights were sort of useful for the lower barrel. But the upper had to be aimed literally about a foot low even at 5 yards out to get the second hole to be somewhere near the first. Or it may have been the other way around. But whatever. The point is that just the difference in bore axis height produced around a 12 inch difference in POI at 5 to 7 yards.

Put these two basics together and it's no wonder the sight plane is so angled compared to the bore axis.

Semis do this too. But for the recoil absorption reasons mentioned they don't do it as much. But I do find that my semis shoot a little lower when using light bullets at fast speeds than they do with big heavy bullets at lower speeds.

So the effect is real and it is why the sights on revolvers are so out of line with the bore axis.

BCRider,

I understand all that. But, I still maintain the position that while the reasoning may be somewhat valid, as I did say it may not be a total BS, the manufacturers over compensated for that and resulted in the front sight being too tall in many cases.

What you say is academically correct. However, the fact of the matter is that my GP100 fixed sight hits too low.

Also, the bore height issue is somewhat exaggerated. Actually, if I grip my revolvers with the modern combat grip("High grip"), the bore height from the web of my hand isn't all that higher compared to low bore axis plastic framed self-loaders that I have.

You might get the impression of the bore height problem because the location of the trigger has to be way down there below the cylinder, but the recoil transfer point is the web of the hand, not the front of the grip below the trigger guard. Look at the hammer fired self-loaders. The height of the hammer height between revolver and self-loaders are no different: they both have to be directly behind the bore. Now, look at where the top of the web of the hand with modern combat grip is. It is below the exposed base of the hammer height. That height is not all that different. If I remember Jerry Miculek's instruction correctly, he even has his hand high enough for the hammer spur to touch his hand. That would create a bore height that is even lower than many self-loaders available.

 

[reddrumtoo]

Heavy bullets , moving slower nearly always shoot higher . Try some heavy bullets , or even a firmer grip might help . It works for me.
good luck,

 

[SwampWolf]

Like I said LAGS, "a real chore".

 

[Radagast]

Blind Justice:
S&W made a small run of the Model 520, a fixed sight .357 Magnum N frame for the NYSP that was never delivered. Only 3000 guns made in 1980.