Floating firing pins - why ?

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Newton

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Both my M1 carbine and SKS have floating firing pins, this being in keeping with many firearms of the period.

The free floating firing pin brings with it the extra risk of slam fires and accidental discharges, for the sake of a small return spring I can't help but wonder why the original designers chose this layout.

What am I not seeing here.
 
As do my Garands and my M1A. These are military rifles or rifles of military heritage.
Simplicity of manufacture and of repair in the field have to be taken into account when designing a service rifle.
Sticking to milspec ammo in these guns will probably result in you having a lifetime of shooting with nary a problem. :)
 
We can include the M16/AR115 and AK Series of weapons as well. You can even see a small primer dimple on unfired rounds that have been chambered.

On the 9mm ARs there is a firing pin return spring.

Since the firing pin channel is relatively well protected, my reasoning is that the free floating pin is able move freely in the absence of lubrication and to allow movement if any laquer primer sealants make their way into firing pin channel. A spring could potentially bind against the firing pin during dirty conditions. I would believe that no spring would also allow extra room for water to run out of the firing pin channel in case the weapon was submerged.

Good Shooting
Red
 
The key word is 'floating'.

As long as the f-pin is floating there is zero danger of a slam-fire. The f-pin passage would have to be very dirty to prevent the pin floating meaning the weapon has been seriously neglected.
 
Probably because you need to clean the gun in the field and that spring is another part to get lost and help you lose the firing pin.

It's not necessary. Slam fires due to the pin design are rare, and slamfires happen with inertial pins too.
 
"As long as the f-pin is floating there is zero danger of a slam-fire. The f-pin passage would have to be very dirty to prevent the pin floating meaning the weapon has been seriously neglected."

Not entirely true, especially not with commercial ammo, and ESPECIALLY if you lube the firing pin and/or bolt with one of the "super lubes." The reduction in friction is such that the firing pin can gain just enough momentum to detonate the primer.

Uncommon, but a possibility.

Check out this recent thread on the subject.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36187&highlight=floating+super
 
pure poppycock

.........as the Milsurp weapon was made for milsurp ammo and any other combo is the deed of the present operator, with nothing being the fault of the weapon if not properly utilized (ie: the use of commerical ammo or the use of a 'superlube' which would be above and beyond the designed maintenance of the milsurp weapon)
 
Well now you're saying something COMPLETELY different than you did in your first message, Dude.

In your first message you're saying that it's impossible to have a slam fire with a floating firing pin. That's wrong.

Now you're saying that it's operator error, inferring that it is possible.

Which is it?

As for it being the "fault of the operator," that's where your poppy runs into your cock, Dude...

The ammo companies are making commercial ammo that they claim is completely suitable for use in any of these weapons.

The lubricants manufacturers are making super lubes that they claim are suitable for use in any firearm under any circumstances in any condition.

Well, unfortunately, some combinations just don't work that well, but no one knows that until they start actually testing those combinations. But that's a far cry from it being either purely impossible or purely operator error.
 
Oh, and there's one other situation where a floating firing pin can become lodged in such a way that it will act as a fixed firing pin and cause a slam fire, and it has nothing to do with operator error or using commercial ammo or the phases of the moon, or who won in the fifth at Belmont...

A broken firing pin. CZ52s are particularly prone to this.
 
so you admit that the floating pin is fine until it becomes 'fiexd' somehow, which btw is exactly my point (thanks!)




actually mike I did not say: "it's impossible to have a slam fire with a floating firing pin"
I said: "as long as the f-pin is floating there is zero danger of a slam-fire"


here, I'll type slow for you
Operator error such as letting the pin chamber get so dirty that the f-pin no longer floats, using non mil-surp ammo with primers much softer than were intended for the weapon design ect .......are the reason for slam fires.
 
No need to fall out over this guys.

For the record I have been reading the details of some instances where SKS rifles have gone runaway on UMC (Remington) 7.62x39mm, and what did I go out and buy for my first SKS session, yup, UMC - doh.

I will "risk it" but only with one or two rounds in the magazine, then it's Wolf copper jacketed all the way.
 
Dude,

How is an overlubed firing pin NOT free floating?

You said as long as it is free floating it will work, then you said as long as it's not "superlubed", whatever the hell that is.

Not logical.
 
Not entirely true, especially not with commercial ammo, and ESPECIALLY if you lube the firing pin and/or bolt with one of the "super lubes." The reduction in friction is such that the firing pin can gain just enough momentum to detonate the primer. ...Mike.
In this case, the action should be locked up by the time inertia moved the pin enough to nail an overly sensitive primer.

Not good, but not dangerous as long as the basics of gun safety are being observed.

Sam
 
I have never had a SKS or AK slam fire but I did with my 49/56 Mas just once when first chambering a round. To reload I found that CCI makes a hard primmer for this purpose, so i purchsed 1000 they are the same price as regular.
 
I had an SKS slamfire once, I assume it had a piece of crud that held up the pin. If ran through three rounds really quick then stopped on its own. When I got home took it apart and whatever was in there no longer was. That was several thousand rounds ago and I haven't had any problems since. I did determine that day that automatic firing is best when you know it is coming. :eek:
 
First, let me say, I do not want to fan any flames, simply wish to pass on some information which perhaps may help someone avoid a dangerous slam fire.

I have put a lot of rounds downrange through M1 Garands & M1A's but not too much experience with the AR's and none w/AK's, so following refers to the M1 types.

Other than a dirty chamber, a broken firing pin or a pin that is no longer free floating for whatever reason, IMHO, ammo is probably the number one cause of slam fires. Anything that can cause the round to "stop short" of full chambering can result in the firing pin hitting the primer with sufficient force to set it off. If this occurs before the bolt is in battery, it can be disastrous!

Soft primers can, as pointed out by Freightman result in slam fire and the CCI #34 military primer has a hard cup to duplicate GI ammo, most of which is loaded with a hard primer. Handloaders must be aware of two other factors in order to avoid slam fires.

First, make it a practice to run your thumb over the primer as each round is removed from the press to be sure that the primer is fully seated.

Secondly, each cartridge must be sized sufficiently to fit chamber giving proper headspace clearance. I would not load for any "gas gun" without using a cartridge case gauge. Best practice is to run each case through the case gauge at the time the loaded round comes off the press. At the very least, spot check every few rounds in a given lot of reloads (for this to be acceptable, one must keep all brass in lots that have been fired the same number of times).

To illustrate the importance of the above statement, had a friend who is a very experienced highpower competitor and reloader who wrecked his match grade M1 Garand using the same handloads he has used for years when the rifle slam fired out of battery. Bent his op-rod, blew extractor/ejector out of bolt and rounded the receiver locking lug recess about 1/8" showing the bolt lug had barely entered the recess and was not in battery at the time the slamfire occured. He received a cut on the forehead and had a little problem with his trigger control for a while afterwards. Fortunately, the rifle, and his shooting ability have since been repaired.

Upon examination of the remaining lot of ammo, we found that the rounds did not have sufficient headspace (clearance) in his snug chamber. He had loaded this batch of ammo using the same die setting as always and other lots measured OK. The problem stemmed from the fact that this particular lot of brass had been fired quite a few times and had work hardened and his dies had been set to give proper headspace with once fired brass. The harder brass springs back more than softer brass after sizing.

Hopefully, this information may help someone else avoid this pitfall.

Regards,
hps
 
tac17,

Doubling in SKS's is somewhat common, but isn't usually caused by the firing pin. Usually it's the sear.

I really think that this kind of slamfire is very unusual.
 
I really think that this kind of slamfire is very unusual.

The complete serious of events were that I had just reloaded, I then fired a couple of rounds, had the little burst, it chambered another round without firing, I dumped the magazine and racked that round out.

I thought for a minute that they had cooked off but it did chamber that last round without cooking off and it wasn't hot to begin with. I somehow doubt the odds of me getting two soft or high primers in a row so I have never thought much about that. I have considered that it pierced a primer and a little bit of the primer stuck to the pin and didn't let it retract correctly. There was a pill of brass laying around so I didn't have much luck finding the right one to examine. I thought about it and thought about it but it never figured out what happened and it never did it again.

Perhaps I have the only SKS ever produced with a three shot burst. :scrutiny:
 
SPE:
Again, not familiar w/SK/AK triggers but a double can be caused by poor trigger job or worn hooks on an M1/M1A. Insufficient engagement or a bad angle of the rear hooks on the hammer is usually the cause (again, M1 types). On the Garand (actually on any service rifle), 4.5# is minimum allowable trigger pull for match shooting.

Doubling is different than slam fire in that, on the M1/M1A, the hammer cannot strike the firing pin until the bolt is in battery. Doubling is not good, but a slam fire can occur out of battery, thus is of much greater concern.

Regards,
hps

Edited: Actually, the hammer can hit firing pin, but the firing pin cannot strike the primer until bolt is in battery due to the 90* bend on tail of firing pin must line up with a groove in the receiver bridge before it can travel full forward.
 
I have well over 20K trouble free rounds through my 'Cowboy Companion' SKS, all mil-surp (as the weapon was designed) . And while I only do a tear-down and cleaning every year or so, I do swab the barrel and a VERY IMPORTANT 'float check' on the firing pin before a shooting session. It's easy, just hold the SKS butt up and use your pinky finger to depress the pin flush w/the bolt face. It should move freely. My 'super-lube' comment above reffers to over lubing the firing pin with some newfangeled stuff which can easily cause firing pin binding............. as overlubing can collect 'stuff' from normal rifle operation. An almost dry light coat of oil is all the firing pin will ever need in an SKS. (or AR, M1-Garand, Carbine ect)

A floating pin is better for military weapons...........for military enviorment conditions. Porperly (easily) maintained and with milsurp ammo, it will only slamfire if the pin is broken and jammed fwd.
 
To think that a "superlubed" firing pin would somehow gain enough momentum to slamfire is,.....well, silly. Only way lube is going to cause a slamfire is if the lube is crappy enough to jam the firing pin in the "fire" position. "Superlubed" indeed!
 
Tac17,

Maybe I was confusing. I was trying to say that short bursts of full auto (like you experienced) are actually common with the SKS. The firing pin isn't to blame, it's a problem with the sear/disconnector/etc.
 
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