Florida Guns-in-cars, Good News ???

[eric.cartman]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-flfguns0313sbmar13,0,6282590.story

Florida House panel: Let workers keep guns in cars
By John Kennedy | Orlando Sentinel
March 13, 2008

Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Fark Google Newsvine Reddit Yahoo Print Reprints Post comment Text size: TALLAHASSEE - A Republican-controlled House council struggled with a pair of competing GOP principles Wednesday: the right to bear arms and the rights of private landowners to control their property.

In the end, the guns won.

Over fierce opposition from major Florida employers, a House council voted 11-6 Wednesday to allow employees to carry concealed weapons to work — provided they kept them in their vehicles.

The move was a major victory for the National Rifle Association, which has pushed unsuccessfully the past two years for even stronger guns-at-work legislation.

Last year's effort came before the same House Environment and Natural Resources Council just days after a Virginia Tech student shot and killed 32 people and then himself. It did not pass.

But in this election year, supporters came up with a compromise, limiting the gun-carrying provision to the more than 500,000 Floridians with concealed-weapons permits.

"This is closer to where we want to be, but not where we want to be," said Marion Hammer, the NRA lobbyist. "The Constitution begins, 'We the people,' not 'We the Chamber of Commerce' or 'We the Disney' or 'We the Publix.' It's about everyday people and their lives."

The organizations cited by Hammer were among those opposing the legislation, which they said violated their rights to control what comes onto their property. Most large employers currently ban firearms.

"Who do you want to decide what you can or can't do on your property? Government or the employer?" said David Daniel, lobbyist for the Florida Chamber of Commerce. He ridiculed the measure (CS/HB 503) as "a big government solution looking for a problem."

But its sponsor, Rep. Greg Evers, R-Baker, said that employers provide few safeguards against random workplace violence, so workers should be allowed to have weapons nearby for their own protection. Florida's AFL-CIO was among the groups supporting the bill.

A similar bill (SB1130) has been introduced in the Senate. The House version faces at least one more committee stop before going to the full House, although further action has not yet been scheduled.

Republican lawmakers, apparently worn down by two years of battle over the issue, seemed eager to approve the scaled-back bill.

Business groups said Reps. Ray Sansom, R-Destin, and Dean Cannon, R- Winter Park, in line to be House speakers over the next four years, were intent on putting the issue behind them and signaled support for the concealed-weapons compromise.

"They threw [the NRA] a bone in an election year," said Randy Miller, of the Florida Retail Federation.

So only IFF I have a CWP?
What does that have to do with anything?

 

[k_dawg]

It is called a "political compromise" to get the foot in the door.

 

[Flyboy]

This is great news. We're fighting this battle in Oklahoma; right now, anti-gun companies are winning, but if it gets challenged in Florida, that would be a separate circuit (the challenge is in Federal court). If we lose our appeal, but Florida can keep their law intact, it could get very interesting.

 

[camacho]

I think is is a very good news, and we have been battling this second year now. While it still prohibits those who do not have CCW but otherwise can carry guns in their cars everywhere else, it is a step in the right direction. Below is the NRA email-alert and their position on it:

Self-Defense Legislation, HB 503 Amended & Passed Out of Council



Date: March 13, 2008
To: USF & NRA Member and Friends
From: Marion P. Hammer
USF Executive Director
NRA Past President

House Bill 503 by Representative Greg Evers (R-Milton) was heard by the House Environment & Natural Resources Council yesterday and was amended with a substitute bill by the Council - and then passed by a vote of 11 to 6.

The substitute bill is identical to the original bill except that it requires an EMPLOYEE, who keeps a firearm in a private vehicle in the business parking lot while at work, to have a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm (CCW). The requirement of a CCW license DOES NOT apply to customers or invitees who park in the business parking lot. It only applies to employees.

We did not support this change to the bill. Legislators were trying to accommodate the business lobbyists BUT, as in previous attempts to find middle ground, the lobbyists for big corporations still oppose everything and are only interested in absolute power and control over what lawful products can be kept in private vehicles in parking lots.

The new language clearly discriminates against employees who exercise constitutional and statutory rights. Below is a link to a news article on yesterday’s actions. CONTRARY to what the article says, a CCW is ONLY required for employees and not for customers and invitees who park in business parking lots.

In other words, if the bill passed in the current form, Disney, Publix, McDonalds or any anti-gun business could not prohibit customers or invitees from having firearms locked in their private vehicles in parking lots while they shop or conduct business, but they can prohibit employees from exercising the same right unless the employee has a CCW.


www.tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article415034.ece



Please continue to check www.NRAILA.org for updates on Florida’s Right-to-Self-Defense legislation.

 

[PLRinmypocket]

As far as I know, this never meant "Only CC permit holders can keep a gun in their car at work". That's allready perfectly legal, even if you do not have a concealed carry license, though Publix, or Disney, or the city of Orlando will fire you if they find out about it.

I assume this would just make it illegal for you to get fired from your job for having a gun in your car if you have a Concealed carry permit. It was never illegal to have a gun in your car, except maybe parked at the courthouse.

It's definately good news...I don't work at Publix, but I make sure to carry (legally of course) whenever I'm shopping there as a silent protest to their disarming their own employees.

 

[lacoochee]

Not only is not illegal to keep a gun in any parking lot in Florida, it's also not illegal to carry a concealed weapon at work with or without your employers knowledge. The funny thing is as things stand right now you are better of using a very deep method of concealment like Smartcarry or Thunderwear and keeping your weapon on you.

Even worse for employers is that last years proposed law was much better for them from a legal standpoint. It exempted them from liability for the use weapons kept in an employees car, right now they are liable regardless of whether the employee has the firearm with their knowledge or not.

My company is just as bad as the rest and stupid in a corporate way. We recently had an issue with one of our security doors so they hired an armed guard at 10$ an hour to watch over the door until we get it fixed. He carried .357 sp101 4" that he admited to me that he had never fired that was issued by his security company, actually when I asked him what he was carrying he didn't know, I had to tell him.

 

[markk]

He carried .357 sp101 4"

Loaded with .38's I hope as it is illegal for a security guard in Florida to carry .357's. Only 9mm's, .38's, and lower...

 

[Winchester 73]

I assume this would just make it illegal for you to get fired from your job for having a gun in your car if you have a Concealed carry permit.

You are correct.Sadly ,if my employer is any example, if they find you have a gun, they'll concoct some other reason to get rid of you.
Like maybe not liking the way you comb your hair.Florida being a "at will" state, you can be hired at will,resign at will and ,of course ,be fired at will.
They don't have to have a reason.Just a mission.

 

[Robert Hairless]

You are correct.Sadly ,if my employer is any example, if they find you have a gun, they'll concoct some other reason to get rid of you.
Like maybe not liking the way you comb your hair.Florida being a "at will" state, you can be hired at will,resign at will and ,of course ,be fired at will.
They don't have to have a reason.Just a mission.

Fortunately there are no labor unions to get in the way when employers want to do such things.

 

[Pat-inCO]

The company I retired from (has offices in every state) had no official policy on having guns in vehicles until a bunch of people started carrying long guns in a pick-up rack (back window). That got tongues wagging and before the "official" policy was issued there were two shootings by disgruntled employees (this was in the 70s).

BLAM, the official policy said no guns in vehicles. After several discrete questions were raised about those participating in company sponsored trap leagues, the "unofficial" policy became something like: "As long as no one can see the gun in your vehicle, we don't care. If it can be seem from outside of your vehicle you must either take it home, or turn in your badge (quit)."

This is where I fail to comprehend. If you do not have it in a "pick-up" rack, and it is not visible from outside of your car, how will anyone know? :banghead:

I'm beginning to think that many of our problems are created by those that are militant (you know, I GOT MY RIGHTS!). As I said above, we were able to solve the "problem" simply by remaining calm and not getting everyone's knickers in a knot. That's part of why I stay away from the open carry people. Many of them are looking for a confrontation. Confrontation is most effective once you have laid out the groundwork, obtained at least partial concurrence and know you are not going to be standing their "in your skivies", alone. Or stated another way, don't ask the question (in public) if you don't know most of the answer.

 

[AirForceShooter]

The mouse is going to go crazy.

AFS

 

[Samuel Adams]

A Republican-controlled House council struggled with a pair of competing GOP principles Wednesday: the right to bear arms and the rights of private landowners to control their property.

This is certainly a dilemma. Private property rights are the backbone of liberty. The Georgia Legilature is going through the same discussion and this issue is holding up a less restrictive gun bill.

 

[Winchester 73]

Fortunately there are no labor unions to get in the way when employers want to do such things

I knew you'd find the plus side to this !

 

[PLRinmypocket]

This is certainly a dilemma. Private property rights are the backbone of liberty.

It is a dilemma. But IMO "Shall not be infringed" means shall not be infringed. I don't think the law states property rights "shall not be infringed" anywhere. (if so, we would not have eminent domain issues).


Yes Florida is an at-will employing state. so if the mouse does not like that ALL American citizens have a constitutional right to carry a weapon (no matter where they are), they can fire all the American citizens (at-will) and hire only non-Americans, that do not have the right to carry. Or they could just hire Felons that can't legally own a gun.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

This is certainly a dilemma. Private property rights are the backbone of liberty.

This is the way I look at it. My right ti bear arms plus my property rights (personally owned vehicle) vs. my employer's parking lot, open to the public, that only restricts firearms in employees vehicles by threat of termination.

2 vs. 1.

As mentioned, it is already state law that I can have a firearm in my vehicle while parked in my employer's parking lot. The only difference is my employer will not be able to fire me if he ever does find a firearm in my vehicle. Something he cannot do without physically searching my vehicle, which violates yet another of my rights.

 

[lacoochee]

The only difference is my employer will not be able to fire me if he ever does find a firearm in my vehicle. Something he cannot do without physically searching my vehicle

That right there is the key argument to me, this is not just about guns this about the right of employees to an expectation of privacy in regards to the contents of their vehicles. If an employer thinks something was stolen, etc. then they can involve the police and attempt to press charges whatever.

Employer's are regulated by many different agencies in Florida both Federal and State, including minimum wage laws, equal opportunity, OSHA, you name it. Additionally, as pointed out above business in Florida also enjoys an advantage over unions that they do not have in many other states, so maybe this will go someways to redressing that balance.

 

[Winchester 73]

Additionally, as pointed out above business in Florida also enjoys an advantage over unions that they do not have in many other states, so maybe this will go someways to redressing that balance

You are an optimist,lacoochee as am I.
But the balance of power in Florida is always going to favor the employer.
Being a mere bureaucrat and having Civil Service protection ,my worries are minimal.
But 90% of Florida's employee's are under the protectionless Hairless doctrine.
Gone deaf,fired,gone blind ,fired,bad hair stylist ,fired, wore leisure suit to work fired ,one month to go to collect pension after 30 years ,fired.
I may exaggerate just a trifle, but not by much.I have seen some of these scenarios occur.
Now for the R.H., C of C rebuttal.
I await my scathing.

 

[nero45acp]

My employer has a no gun at work policy, and as a FL CCW permit holder I'm pleased to hear this news.

However, I've quietly kept a J-frame in my car for years. Also, as a RN with 18 years of experience (including critical care & ER experience), even if I had been fired for keeping a gun in my car, I could easily find another job making the same or more money in less than a week. And my employer knows it too...


nero

 

[xsquidgator]

My employer has a no gun at work policy, and as a FL CCW permit holder I'm pleased to hear this news.

However, I've quietly kept a J-frame in my car for years. Also, as a RN with 18 years of experience (including critical care & ER experience), even if I had been fired for keeping a gun in my car, I could easily find another job making the same or more money in less than a week. And my employer knows it too...


nero
_______

Exactly. There are no guarantees anywhere in life, so even until this hopefully passes, I know a number of people who do this too. "Mum's the word" is the best policy. I live in Orlando and would not be pleased at being prevented from having at least a "car gun" available, given the number of violent crimes, carjackings, and the like around here. I look forward to the protection of this law though.

 

[Winchester 73]

My employer has a no gun at work policy, and as a FL CCW permit holder I'm pleased to hear this news.

However, I've quietly kept a J-frame in my car for years. Also, as a RN with 18 years of experience (including critical care & ER experience), even if I had been fired for keeping a gun in my car, I could easily find another job making the same or more money in less than a week. And my employer knows it too...

Exactly. There are no guarantees anywhere in life, so even until this hopefully passes, I know a number of people who do this too. "Mum's the word" is the best policy. I live in Orlando and would not be pleased at being prevented from having at least a "car gun" available, given the number of violent crimes, carjackings, and the like around here. I look forward to the protection of this law though.

Great attitude on the part of both of you gentleman.
I am cautiously optimist we will get a bill through this time.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

As others have posted before: if your freedom-hating employer finds out you have a firearm in your vehicle, he will make up a reason to fire you.

This law accomplishes nothing except violating the rights of property owners. If you have something in your car that they don't want you to have, on their property, in the terms of employment that you signed when you began work, then they have the right to ask you to leave.

But you have no obligation to make it known that you have a firearm in your vehicle. Not only have you no obligation to do so, if you are indiscreet enough to let other people know you have a gun in your car, you're just begging for someone to spend 30 seconds jimmying your lock through the window seal and steal it. It is, to put it bluntly, stupid to let your co-workers find out that you have a firearm in your vehicle.

Again: this law accomplishes nothing positive. There is no common sense behind it. Those with power will accomplish their ends, even if they have to do it for a different "reason."

-Sans Authoritas

 

[LawBot5000]

This doesn't really change anything. I carried at work even when it was forbidden. I'm not going to suddenly start leaving my gun in the car because of this law. If any employer wants me to stop carrying, they better put metal detectors and armed guards at every entrance with a place for me to check my guns, just like at any Florida courthouse.

So long as they ignore workplace security, I will ignore their requests to disarm.

And if an employer wants to fire you for carrying a gun, this law doesn't stop them from doing so. Florida is one of the strictest at-will employment states so they can pretty much fire you for any reason whatsoever. The trick here is to either a) not get caught b) be valuable enough to the company that they won't fire you for breaking the rules.

 

[Winchester 73]

As others have posted before: if your freedom-hating employer finds out you have a firearm in your vehicle, he will make up a reason to fire you

And if an employer wants to fire you for carrying a gun, this law doesn't stop them from doing so. Florida is one of the strictest at-will employment states so they can pretty much fire you for any reason whatsoever

Both you guys are right.I said that in a previous post.
But passage of this bill can't hurt.Its a crack in the door.It will benefit a few employees here and there.
One step at time in the Sunshine State.
Now legal Open Carry will make a real difference.Very breezy down here.