Flurry again....

[Dave McCracken]

I was shooting by myself at PGC this noon, enjoying the wind and working on right to left crossers when another shotgunner approached me. Let's call him Mike, and you've met him here before. His son was the subject of the thread called "Testosterone" I wrote not long ago.

This time he was shooting and not his son. We did a round of wobble and he did not do very well. He was pleasant about it, but I noted that his shots were on the long side. His shotgun was a nice looking Citori with upgrade engraving.

His stance had improved. He was addressing the break point and was squared on to the gun instead of being along side it. Mike mentioned getting some pointers from the regulars at PGC, including the old trick of using too much choke for practice. Tight chokes cost new shooters targets at first, but they're unequalled in getting the center of the patterns into the center of that leading molecule on each bird.Mike was using an Extra Full, practically a turkey choke.

I noticed his hits were WOD. That's Way Out Dere. It wasn't the choke that did it, he was taking time to "Make Sure", anathema to good wingshooting.

So, I reached into my bag of tricks and suggested we do a flurry. After explaining what a flurry was and how it can help we got into it.

Here's a memory freshener of flurry shooting.

Two shooters, usually standing side by side on a trap field at Post 3 both load and fire as fast as they can in turn. Using a wobble trap adds to the fun because of the greater variety of targets.

The shooters have enough time to shoot each bird, but not enough time to intellectualize themselves into misses.

ALL thinking must be done before one calls "Pull".

Mike had fun, and he hit more than he had been. His breaks were solid with few chippy shots, another bennie of using a tight choke. Reading the breaks gets easier. I 'splained this to Mike and loaded up my stuff.

So, I did my good deed for the day, helped another shotgunner a bit and had fun. Good way to spend a Sunday....

 

[P95Carry]

Not only good Dave but - seems like Mr Testosterone was gaining from it all too. Perhaps with no offspring to ''impress'' he was that much more open to helpful comments etc.

I was (still am) cussing the wind today - but that's just old irritable me!!

 

[anapex]

Sorry I wasn't there to meet up with you today Dave, procastinating on household chores does catch up with you sometimes though. Sounds like you had a good time though!

 

[sm]

Thick As A Brick
Really don't mind if you sit this one out.
My words but a whisper - your deafness a SHOUT.
I may make you feel but I can't make you think. -Jethro Tull



I likes Flurries...especially when I am cheating and use an "old pump" and going against a 'young" Competition Master....heheheh.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks folks.

P95, wind shooting is a matter of attitude. One can cuss the wind or enjoy the challenge. Is the glass half empty or half full?

And, Mike is a reasonable guy. Maybe he's transcending his hormonal limits.

Anapex, another time. I would like to wring out that 28 a little. BTW, there's a 28 gauge 650 for sale on the bulletin board at PGC, heh,heh.....

Steve, if we ever get together we may get locked up for too much fun.

 

[sm]

I would like to wring out that 28 a little. BTW, there's a 28 gauge 650 for sale on the bulletin board at PGC, heh,heh.....

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Did Ya'll catch that???? I have been called, Persistent,Tenacious,and some other stuff I can't type here.

Only a matter of time folks, stay tuned...I can hear it now - Dave to the wifey " Honey- I have all these 28 ga shells loaded - I don't have gun to shoot them with" <pouted lip, head hung down>

Dave, well as the man said, a buddy will come get you out of jail - a true friend will be in the cell with you and remark -" DANG! that was some fun!!"

Flurries with a 28 ga...well I could "try" to explain it - some things are best experienced...

kudu, Trapper, Smoke,anapex,Lee... all handing Spinner monies...must be a pool going on or something..."now what date of purchase you want?"...

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - Prepare yourself for some blasphemy...

I had an afternoon to myself yesterday, so I went out and shot a few rounds of sporting clays and a bunch of 5-stand. Overall, I shot between 350 and 400 shells. Most of it was shot with my 12ga O/U (which weighs in a little over 8.5 pounds)... but 50 targets were shot (at) with a 28ga 870 Express.

It was OK, but frankly I think my 12ga has less recoil with 7/8 oz reloads. On the 5-stand, I shot slightly better with the 28ga than I did the first time I tried my Model 42, but only by one or two targets. It wasn't even close to how I shoot with my "regular" gun.

So, having done that little experiment, I'm making a couple of calls today to see about getting tubes (.410/28/20) for my O/U. Since I'm more concerned with competing, I think that's better for me. Besides, when it comes to hunting, I'm well-covered in the lightweight, easy-to-carry category.

I've still got to find someway to fit more reloaders on my bench. I may need t work out some kind of quick-change clamping system.

 

[sm]

Trapper-

Blasphemy? Nope, not IMO.

Trapper you, myself and many others know about this stuff we have BTDT. NOT just speculated and read about it.

I agree with improvements on powder, wads and such, 7/8 oz loads from a 12 bore are giving great patterns, with little recoil. Back in the day - we didn't see many 12 ga 7/8 oz loadings, lotsof folks using gas guns and these would not run the guns, even the 1oz loads would not.

A few O/U folks were , and same folks used in SxS for hunting with 12 bore. Then again more folks had a pump and gas gun - loaded shells that would run in both guns.

Brister's book title Shotgunning: The Art and the Science - well there is much truth in there being "art" and "science" to this shotgun stuff.

7/8 oz from a 7# gun or heavier ( lets say 12 bore) is going to have less recoil than a 6# 20 ga shooting 7/8 oz loads. Even with heavier 20 ga gun, often we find these loads "thumpy" - that payload to bore dealie.

Now we and others that have / do compete, understand why folks use Tubes or in my case used Barrel sets. We have the same gun fit, same weight, all we did was change the gauge. We understand and appreciate gun fit, redundancy in regard to this fit, and how it relates to better consistent shooting.

These guns set up as such in 28 ga is why 1) best scores are in 28 ga, 2) many folks used the 28 ga for 12, 20, 28 events then put on the .410 bbl or inserted the .410 tube. I've been guilty.

Now my Citori 3 bbl set was on a 20 ga frame. The 20 ga was "thumpy" to many folks. With the 28 ga bbls, tame, real tame, and the .410, what recoil?

Gets into that rule of 96 - the weight of gun in ratio to payload. We also have for instance the 7/8 oz going through a 12 bore, versus the same payload exiting from a smaller bore - the 20. I used a 3/4oz, and my 5/8 oz load in 20 ga that was sweet. Patterned great, and tame recoil.

I learned about and gained repect for the 28 ga because:

1) Better patterns with minimal recoil for new shooters that could break more targets, fell more game than the .410. New shooters ( kids) missing with a "kids gun" turned off these in regard to shooting - sad but true.

2) Guns themselves, are good looking and lively in the hands. Be it the heavier / larger framed tube sets, barrel sets - or the true 28 ga frame for toting in the upland for game hunting. Be it a fine O/U, SxS, or a repeater like a 1300 in 28 ga ( that dates me) the 870 ( ask Larry ) or an 1100.

3) Gentleman hunts for quail. One did not use anything larger than 28 ga, and one could get by with a pump or autoshucker...the O/U, SxS and even the single shot was respected.

4) Had some folks go through back, neck, shoulder, and eye surgeries for detached retina's. Doctors' orders and admoniton - nothing over 28 ga or else. So many started with the .410, ( a bit scared to even do that) when able the 28 ga allowed them to at least shoot some clays, many trap leagues were set up for 28 ga, as were Sporting clays, and 5 stand. Skeet was always an option.

So they couldn't hunt waterfowl, or deer hunt, these folks at least could get back out and shoot. I don't know who was more excited -the grandson going dove hunting or his grandpa getting back out after surgeries. I was just tickled to see this, and be a part of it. Now the young pup... well he was more interested in getting into the do-nuts, bumming peppermint, or trying to get the other dogs to play...he didn't understand what the other dogs were doing..."retreive?" whats that?

I still contend the best general purpose Guage is the 12 ga, and I even restrict myself to only 2 3/4" shells. Too much variety of loads, and ammo avail anywhere. From Clay games to waterfowl and deer, it'll do it, proven.

Now add the 28 ga for fun factor, the patterns to bore, the guns themselves...

Then again the 20 ga Ithaca 37...and them 311s in 20 ga....and the .410 in a SxS and single shots , and there was that 32 ga ...almost forgot the 24 ga I shot...

Oh phooey , guess one has to get the whole set - huh?

 

[P95Carry]

Think I'd better save that post and archive it for Camryn and Matthew - get them to see how the 28 really stands out. Hmmm . maybe - 12 years or so .....

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - Since I don't (yet) have any personal 28ga (although I did save the hulls from Sunday), I've got a question for folks who may have BTDT at the pattern board.

All the reading I've done on the 28ga indicates that it works better than it's "supposed to". IIRC, you may have stated that here a time or *ahem* two.

For folks who have read Brister, they will remember that short shot stings are generally more effective, and that the 28ga often has very short shot strings indeed. Now, assuming a standard 3/4oz load, would that load tend to work better out of a 12ga or out of a 28ga?

For example, I am now typically shooting a 20ga load (7/8 oz) out of a 12ga gun, and the patterns are very, very good. Based on how I'm doing with those loads at trap and sporting clays, I find them to be extremely efficient. If I kept reducing the load to 28ga territory, do you think the potential would also be good, or are there too many "unknowns" out there? Is there some critical level where the shot column within the shell becomes too short and patterns begin to suffer?

Once I get a set of 28ga tubes and another MEC, I plan to find out for myself, but for now I'll be satisfied with talking about it.

 

[sm]

Trapper-

Great Scott Man - what a great question. Sounds like something I'd ask...wait I did, and I err...patterned.

From MY testing, my experiences.

Recall every bbl is fickle unto itself. Add the volume of shot to this fickle bbl and we won't even get into hardness of shot, wads, powders and such.

You have 7/8 oz "volume" exiting a .729 bore versus the same "volume" leaving a .540 bore. There IS a unique property - that payload to bore - that does in fact give the 28 ga the shorter shot string.

I don't have my book here, so I will stay basic and general - the principle and such apply. Recall Mr. Olin and Mr B ( I forget how to spell his name) each had different approaches to ballistics.

Now some things "just happen" - they tend to "happen" and it relates simply to payload to bore size ratio. Besides the 28 ga having a short string and hitting harder than supposed to - #6 shot in 1 1/8 loading tend to pattern best across the board in general in any 12 bore - no matter the choke.

I didn't BEST, I said across the board in most 12 bores. Personally I side with Mr. Olin in the fact the #6 shot deforms less and the 1 1/8 shot size and the bore like each other.

Trapper - ever had a bad crimp and some pellets fall out of a load? And you shot a clay anyway? It broke the clay - right?

Take your 12 ga , and for a really eye-opener a .410. Take a factory .410 skeet load and shoot it at paper. Now take another shell out of the same box, "un-crimp" it and remove say 1/8 - 1/4 of the pellets...get it crimped back as tight as original. Now shoot it. Very often even with less pellets - there is a better center density.

Repeat with a 12 ga 2 3/4 dr of 1 1/8 oz of shot. Now you know what a 7/8 oz load will do, drop the pellet count down to 5/8 oz, go down to a 1/2 oz....MY experience - the "cut off" for smallest payload is 3/4 oz in 12 ga. At ~ 1250 fps, these are great.

Less pellet count, even tweaking the fps faster or slower...well that/ those payloads don't do well out of .729 bore dia. That "ratio" is all skewed.

20 ga - try a 5/8 oz load and tell me what you think - 1200 fps and well...yeah buddy it works and hits hard. It likes the "ratio".

Folks just think the opposite sex is hard to figure out and is fickle...I will always say the shotgun bore and what IT likes is more fickle.

Bad hair day - hah! Shotguns can/ will/ may have a "bad hair" day on any day of the week that ends in "Y".

Might be the ONLY absolute thing we can say about shotgunning.

 

[kudu]

TR, every load is different in every gun. Many tubed guns that are out there have built in overboring in them. I know that my Kolar set is slightly overbored and really patterns well. I haven't mic'ed it for a long time and can't remember the exact tolerances that are in the insert tubes, but they do a good job. Briley is top of the line also for tubed inserts. Lately the majority of shells I have been using are .410's, I get bored with braking the targets all the time.

 

[Dave McCracken]

A little thread drift here, surprise, surprise.....

Ballistics researchers of yore set store by the "Square Load". This was a load where the height of the shot equalled it's diameter. 1 oz in 16 gauge and the 3/4 oz in the Lilliputian 28 gauge were considered square loads. Both do well in the field.

It's a different game now. Between the plastic wad and harder/rounder shot more pellets stay in the pattern. A light load has more moxie these days because of efficiency.

An efficient load KEEPS pellets. Since the setback pressures (Like 60 Gs) are so much lesser with the lighter shot loads, the pellets exit the bore and wad rounder and more likely to fly true.

The little 3/4 oz 12 gauge loads I worked up in a NEF Partner for Son's first shotgun experiences were quite efficient. Whether or not they'd be "Better" than a standard 28 gauge load with similar shot and speed is a matter of conjecture until some gimlet eyed types start counting lots of tiny little holes in patterning paper.

 

[TrapperReady]

Dave - Thread drift? Around here? Just think of it as shooting the ideas through a cylinder choke. Sure, you get some flyers pretty quickly, but a pellet in the fringe can be just as effective as one in the center of the pattern.

BTW, I've got a good friend who makes 3/4oz 12ga loads for some BSA shooting instruction. They seem to work well, but to get a decent crimp, he's got to use a fiber spacer, which jacks his production costs up quite a bit. Since I've played around with 7/8oz a fair amount, I'm trying to help him get a more cost effective 3/4oz load worked out. When we do, I'd love to pattern it against a true 28ga load.

 

[Dave McCracken]

TR, I used a Circle Fly 28 gauge fiber wad dropped in the shot cup to get the crimp level. Wad was the CB clone of the WAA12SL, Win 209 primer, STS hull, and 16 gr of Clays.

Like 7/8 oz loads, this works best within 35 yards even with lots of choke.