Future Infantry small arms

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Lessee: The power of an '06 from a 24" barrel. Full-auto controllability of an M16. Short and handy enough for vehicle folks and for room-cleaning. MOA or better for accuracy. Relatively inexpensive to buy by the million.

I call it the JLS School of Firearms Design: Jonathan Livingston Seagull; wish for it hard enough and it'll happen.

Not.
 
You are right in everything you say. But in his defense, let me point out that we should view such attacks as opportunities -- opportunities to kill the attackers.

People who attack our troops should always be killed, pour encourager les autres.;)
Shooting rock throwers can quickly become an overreaction to an incident and prosecutable under UCMJ. Being "attacked" happens often enough to cops on the street, I don't see much leeway in the law to gun down the perps. It's bad enough punching a drunken female in the face to subdue her.

Bullpups aren't the cure many seem to think. Long barrel? No, the barrel is too short - the front handguard must be designed to retain the users hand so he doesn't shoot himself. The lack of barrel in front doesn't allow a bayonet to mount, and it reduces the effective stand off in CQB. The trigger mechanisms so far are lengthy and as a general class are rated mushy and unresponsive. Loading a magazine is awkward as it has to be inserted under the stock near the armpit, difficult to perform whether prone or standing.

Because of the abbreviated overall length, optics are practically required, BUIS are well forward of the chamber on a very short radius and impractical for distance shooting. The overall length is fixed, no folding stock allowed, you can't hinge the barrel in front of the chamber, and overall balance is a joke. Adjustable length stocks are difficult at best, which makes the bullpup impossible to reduce in size to a 10" barrel PDW as already in use by many armies. That alone restricts the design and prevents commonality of parts as a universal platform. The straight line design requires high mounted optics and close range offset will continue to be a problem,, along with a complete inability to design the stock with any drop for ergonomics that conventional piston guns enjoy.

KABOOM's do happen, a burst chamber will occur directly adjacent to the neck and arteries, as opposed to out in front of the face. Most current injuries affect the off hand and cosmetic facial injuries as many shooter's wear safety eyeshields. With a bullpup, the escaping gases and high velocity parts will eject within six inches of major blood vessels and the central nervous system. Oh, it's not very likely, certainly within military standards of acceptable combat loss. I can see Ruger's version with a flip down notice that disables the action until pushed aside. "Overloads/unprojected bullets may cause significant injury and even death to the user! Caution! check the barrel after every shot for unprojected bullets and use certified ammunition from authorized sources only!" But I digress.

There are some simple, concrete reasons most (98%) of the world's armies don't use bullpups, and it's because they bring problems to the table without significantly improving the overall use. Complaint about vehicular dismounts didn't occur until the HMMV was implemented, and it was never intended as a combat vehicle. Urban warfare is adequately served with the M4 type weapon; grenades, rocket launchers, breaching charges, and tactics as a team count far more than a short barrel in close confines.

It was politely noted that a lot of big caliber and bullpup proponents aren't familiar with miltary tactics and resources as a working team in the field and look at the situation as a single individual. From the perspective of a retired Reservist and non combat vet who qualified Infantry, Ordnance, and MP, I add it's because those opinions are basically clueless and reveal a major lack of awareness or experience to have any substance. Less than one in one hundred are have served in the military, one in one thousand in a combat arm. It's no wonder the prior service community closes ranks when these suggestions are offered.

Beside, y'all know we just toss our M4's on the ground and grab the nearest AK at the first opportunity, right? Who needs bullpups?
 
Is part of the problem of our troopies being in an enclosed Humvee. The old open GP was an excellent vehicle for moving a few troops and giving them easy access and egress.
It seems to me that these uparmored Humvees are a killing trap.
 
The HMMV is being replaced by the MRAP, as it should. HMMV's were a general vehicle designed as a multirole platform, a truck, ambulance, radio shack, etc. It was never originally intended as an armored vehicle, just forced into the role as MP's faced more hostile fire, then expanded into a general urban patrol vehicle in a LIC zone. Adding on the armor plate required forced induction on the motor to increase horsepower to move the slug along, reduced mobility in field terrain, and took up even more space in the interior with the armor plate.

We went to war with what we had, look at the armored wheel vehicles the Brits used in Ireland. We had none, our bias was tracks for Northern Europe, not urban conflict. But there's no sense saying that we have to change weapons design to suit the HMMV when it was simply a get-by tool to begin with. A longer range perspective of how the HMMV is being displaced would see it.
 
Tirod said:
It was politely noted that a lot of big caliber and bullpup proponents aren't familiar with miltary tactics and resources as a working team in the field and look at the situation as a single individual. From the perspective of a retired Reservist and non combat vet who qualified Infantry, Ordnance, and MP, I add it's because those opinions are basically clueless and reveal a major lack of awareness or experience to have any substance. Less than one in one hundred are have served in the military, one in one thousand in a combat arm. It's no wonder the prior service community closes ranks when these suggestions are offered.
Beside, y'all know we just toss our M4's on the ground and grab the nearest AK at the first opportunity, right? Who needs bullpups?
My comments weren't directed at you. Nor about the bullpup design.
I made them directly in response to the article, and the author.

Closes ranks is one way to put it. Or put another way, I think some of the suggestions made by those without some appreciation of the mission border on the ridiculous. I wouldn't think to tell a mechanic what tools he should use because I like collecting and studying up on old tools. Usually I dismiss and ignore them.

As hso pointed out, it doesn't take much brain power to figure out that the author's list of criteria are mutually exclusive. And the criteria he does list are so vauge to be meaningless.

As light as possible? If you had to lug gear around with you everywhere, who wouldn't want something "as light as possible?" No thanks, burden me down with some extra, meaningless weight on it please.

Light as possible means nothing. If we could design a 3 lb rifle, would that work? It's as light as possible. Again, meaningless criteria. The weight should be reasonable, and proportionate to the caliber. A 7 pound .308 isn’t controllable, and frankly hurts. A 14 lb .223 is too heavy, and too cumbersome for the caliber.

Articles like this, written in the vacuum of the real world, do very little to propel design and advancement.
 
The AR15 mag/magwell issue is really funny.

The most powerful army in the world, with a buget bigger than the rest of the world combined, is held hostage by a crappy, poorly designed, "disposable" magazin.:banghead::D

OMG is too expensive to change it so we have to design the next generation rifles to work with the 40 years old failure.
Did you guys even looked at DOD buget?
You really think replacing the mag/magwell combination is that big a deal for DOD budget?

Look at this numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

Those are scarry huge numbers compared to what would take to replace the whole "AR15 magwell- AR 15 mag-5.56mm cartridge" combo.
 
Yeah I never understood why they don't dump the stupid aluminum ones for Pmags. Retail is $17, I'm sure the DOD could get that number pretty close to cut in half. Pmags are not perfect but they are better than the USGI aluminum mags in every area.

But thats why its the government they don't always make the smartest moves.
 
Yeah I never understood why they don't dump the stupid aluminum ones for Pmags.

Because PEO Soldier had its own "Improved" magazine design in the works and they decided to fund that instead of buy one of the COTS versions of an improved M16 magazine. Although I know PMAGs have an NSN and are in pretty wide use despite that.
 
Aside from other aspects of the recent SCAR (non)procurement, one thing that does come up is the use of the Heavy lower with a 5.56 kit - basically a filler to accept a 5.56 mag in a .308 magwell.

While FN may be proposing that as a viable solution, it does hint that maybe there is some acknowledgement the AR magwell isn't a fixed immutable concept. If FN needs to dump it to salvage a contract, why, goodbye, and hello big magwells.

Of course, at that point, all sorts of speculation arises as to which other calibers could feed in a big magwell - which is arguable itself. The focus should be on what it takes to make the disposable AR mag more robust. Does the .308 magwell have enough width to accomodate feed lips that can't be bent when dropped, have a body wall depth thick enough to resist being stepped on, and (crescendo of announcement music!) a consistent axis of motion that doesn't jog and change direction - meaning no doglegs.

Then there's the concept of using a torsion spring that pushes up from the bottom rather than a clockwork mag spring that unwinds from the top down, something thats been available for over a hundred years. The advantage is that spring pressure doesn't double every inch to make the magazine unloadable before it's max capacity. It's the second strike in the count against the 30 round M16 mag - 1) it's flimsy junk 2) you can't even load it to capacity because it causes FTF's.

With these kinds of glaring deficiencies in an elemental part of a weapons system, I then have to just stand back and scratch my head listening to all the BS about DI vs. Piston out on the playground. Mention that magazine feeding malfunctions are the #1 problem recorded and experienced by virtually every organization and you get the deer in the headlights stare. It's like people being SBR shotguns with 9 power scopes - a lack of perspective on the big issues, and not so precise in delivery.

Which could be compared to talking about bullpups, no one specific meant, just blasting away on the subject.
 
I think there's a chance with the SCAR lower being molded plastic instead of expensive machined aluminium.
 
I don't understand, I always liked the AR style magwell and mag release. I think its one of the better systems out their, and with Pmags its as close to 100% reliable as a system can be. My friends are big AR shooters and as much as I don't care for that platform they are pretty reliable when set up properly. A good Colt, Stag, or LWRC running Pmags just doesn't hicup.

The AK, and older M14 or even FN49 type mag systems frankly kind of suck in comparison. The only reason AK47's don't have mag problems is that the mags themselves are overbuilt. The rock in system on the rifle is outdated.


The problem is the mags not the rifle, they were originaly supposed to be one use throw away and that didn't work in practice.
 
No real problem with the mag release or shape of the well, other than it conforms to the thin walled aluminum mags it accepts.

Calling the AK mags overbuilt highlights the difference. M16 magazines cannot be loaded to capacity, dropped from arm's length onto a hard surface, and then function flawlessly. Even if it was meant to be disposable, why is it incapable of handling mishaps, which can and will happen in combat? All the exterior mags stuffed in pouches are also subject to damage if they contact a hard object during maneuvers like a drop and roll. One good dent in the side can render them problematic.

AK mags in a vest are often said to be "bullet resistant", with plenty of commentary on discovering their actual capability in the role, as an extreme comparison. At the least, little criticism is directed at their function. AR mag builders actually emulate as many of the features as they can, with some using machined feed lips, and others playing the hat trick of getting a constant curve feeding action out of the envelope. If anything, the Pmag is the indictment of the GI mag, as so much has gone into the design from day one. Non-tilt follower, high lubricity interior walls, low damage feed lips that retain their shape, special alloy springs, etc. Nonetheless, they don't fit all magwells as they have to use as much of the spec dimensions as possible - while AR lower makers are a bit shaky about machining them to the outer limit of the dimensional range. So, they get sanded and filed in a few cases. Minor point, Pmags have an NSN - which goes to show the standard aluminum disposable magazine is far from perfect.

We've been downloading them since the days when the straight 20 rounders were all that was available. It's a problem that requires some serious changes in production and logistics to follow through, but it's easy if the system accepts the adoption in a new platform from day one, as it will only be an incremental difference. Since we're only talking about small money, less than the cost of a couple of fighter aircraft to reequip DOD across the board, I think it's up to knowledgeable to help it along.

We need to stop talking about mag dumps and talk up dumping the mag.
 
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