Germany: "New Gun Law Encounters Fire from Critics"

Status
Not open for further replies.

cuchulainn

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
3,297
Location
Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
from Deutche Welle

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_825007_1_A,00.html
04.04.2003
New Gun Law Encounters Fire from Critics

A year after a fatal school shooting, Germany raised the legal age of many guns from 18 to 25 this week. But critics maintain the government should focus its efforts on stamping out illegal gun ownership.

The 19-year-old killer came wearing a black mask, and carrying a Glock 17 pistol and a Mossberg 590 pump-action shotgun. By the time he had finished his rampage at a high school in Erfurt last April, he had fired off 40 rounds of ammunition and killed 16 people -- 13 teachers, two students and one police officer. With police closing in, the expelled student then killed himself and ended one of Germany's worst crimes.

Once the shock created by the massacre by Robert Steinhäuser (photo) had worn off, German leaders moved to tighten the country's gun laws in June in an effort to prevent mass killings from occurring again. These changes took effect on Tuesday. German Interior Minister Otto Schily said they would provide "more legal protection, more controls and more supervision" of gun ownership in the country. But other officials are not so certain that the law will achieve Schily's goals.

The new law is designed to curb gun ownership of young people. It raises the minimum age for ownership of sporting guns from 18 to 21 and for hunting weapons from 16 to 18. Anyone younger than 25 must have a certificate of "mental capability to own weapons" unless he or she is a registered hunter or sports shooter.

Former minister raises questions

Christian Pfeiffer, a former justice minister in the German state of Lower Saxony, is one of the new law's skeptics.

"The gun law, I think, will not lead to a major reduction in gun crimes in Germany because someone who is determined to commit a crime will continue to pay €500 or more, sometimes less, in some dive for an illegal weapon and then will carry out his illegal business," Pfeiffer said.

Wolfgang Dicke, a specialist in weapons law with the German police union, also said he doubted the new law would be effective. "If you want to stop gun crime, then legal ownership of guns is not the issue," Dicke said. To back up his view, he said that in 1999 only 10 percent of the 1,000 guns seized by police were legally owned.

Despite the severity of the rampage in Erfurt, the number of gun crimes in Germany has fallen in recent years. In 2001, the number of cases in which a firearm was shot fell 21.9 percent from the previous year to a total of 5,416 incidents. The number of killings committed with firearms also fell 13.3 percent to 298.

Looking for ways to prevent crimes

Pfeiffer suggested that officials had to go beyond tougher laws if they wanted to stop crimes like the one which took place in Erfurt.

"The decisive factor -- which has not been addressed yet or addressed enough -- is: How do you stop people from conjuring up these evil crimes? How do you prevent a fascination with weapons, the creation of a macho culture linked to weapons? What has to be done in terms of the media, for instance?" he said.

The German government took one step in this direction on Tuesday, establishing a commission that will work to protect children and adolescents from violence in television and on the Internet. But Schily acknowledged that the government could only to do so much. "There never was such a thing as 100 percent security," he said.

© 2003 Deutche Welle
 
A year after a fatal school shooting, Germany raised the legal age of many guns from 18 to 25 this week.
Wrong! See below.
The 19-year-old killer came wearing a black mask, and carrying a Glock 17 pistol and a Mossberg 590 pump-action shotgun.
BTW, he only used the Glock. The Mossberg jammed before he could fire a single shot. Which did not prevent the politicians from banning short pump-actions that don't have a shoulder stock.
It raises the minimum age for ownership of sporting guns from 18 to 21 and for hunting weapons from 16 to 18.
Wrong!
- For those who have a hunting license the minimum age was 16 and now is 18.
- For sports shooters the minimum age for all kinds of guns was 18, now it's...
a) 18 for guns chambered in rimfire calibers not larger than .22 and not stronger than 200 Joules and single shot or O/U shotguns that are suitable for Olympic events.
b) 21 for any other gun.
Anyone younger than 25 must have a certificate of "mental capability to own weapons" unless he or she is a registered hunter or sports shooter.
Wrong!
- If you are under 25 and want to buy a gun you have to undergo a medical-psychological examination (MPU). The only exception is if you have a hunting license. Sports shooters and even police officers or active duty soldiers have to undergo an MPU.
 
This new law is definitely stupid in some respect.

Before I was commissioned I completed three years of police training. They trust me with a loaded gun every single work day.

But I still have to wait one whole year to get a permit AND have to take this so-called "idiot test". BTW in the past this test has only been used to determine whether someone who has displayed exceptionally stupid and dangerous behaviour in traffic should have his driving license taken back.

And what's even funnier: I can freely carry my service weapon whenever I please but if I buy a gun I may only transport it to and from the range unloaded in a secure case.

On the other hand the new law provides some advantages for rifle owners. In the past no weapons were allowed that looked even remotely like assault rifles, i.e. no folding stocks, no pistol grips, no long magazines, no carry handles. This has changed by now.

And I look very much forward to buying an AK or AR next year :)


Regards,

Trooper
 
Yeah! It sounds almost too good to be true.
Garands, M1 Carbine et al are no longer limited to five rounds and silly modifications. You're finally allowed to use long mags in rifles. Black is no longer evil. You can buy an HK41, MP5SF, SIG 90PE, maybe even AR15. IF you can prove a need for it. Because since April 1st ALL guns have to be backed from the state level of your shooting association. And if your association does not have a single discipline for self-loading rifles... :(

One half of me wishes I'd have a pre-entry in my license for a semi-auto .308 so I could buy an HK41, SR9 or similar. But the other half tells me "slowly, slowly, catchey monkey!"
What if the Bundesverwaltungsamt deletes all the "interesting" disciplines? What if all the "interesting" weapons end up on the black list that was provided by the new law? What if I'd have to apply for a BKA-exception for the evil black rifle that I'd then have bought? What if that rifle will become a safe-queen because there'll no longer be the disciplines for it and I wouldn't be able to shoot it?

No, I'll wait and see. I will not risk wasting money.

Trooper, do you really think they intended to give back even a small piece of freedom? :confused:
 
Last edited:
And what's even funnier: I can freely carry my service weapon whenever I please but if I buy a gun I may only transport it to and from the range unloaded in a secure case.


I like the sound of that. Cops don't get special privileges off-duty that honest citizens can't get. You should be able to carry off-duty, but so should all qualified citizens.
 
Hmm. I'm not quite sure yet. Mind you, I won't be able to buy any firearm (mean-looking or not) before next year anyway.

But me thinks Ministerialrat Jürgen Brenneke is up to no good...

IF they start to ban certain shooting disciplines the first ones to go would probably be the combat-style handgun sports like IPSC and BdMP 1500.

I could only guess about rifles... But I wouldn't buy anything at all until the guidelines that go with the new law are made public.

This whole situation sucks. We shot AK this week and I actually got thinking about one...


Regards,

Trooper
 
I like the sound of that. Cops don't get special privileges off-duty that honest citizens can't get. You should be able to carry off-duty, but so should all qualified citizens.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. I was just pointing out that they differentiate between my service weapon and any privately owned stuff. If I didn't say it clearly enough: I can carry my service weapon off-duty if I desire so.

I understand that I cannot carry what I like while on duty but this way I could buy the world's finest carry piece that might be vastly superior to my duty gun but it would still be good only for the range.

To anyone it may concern: I wasn't going to make any elitist comments. I just wanted to express that if I'm considered enough qualified to carry a gun both for work and in my free time then I'm certainly qualified enough to own one, too.


Regards,

Trooper
 
I misunderstood you (or didn't read closely enough). Perhaps the concept sounds silly that they would bother differentiating.

Though I guess they don't want you to carry a Freedom Arms .454. I see that those have their own club and shooting matches in Germany.
 
Well... I sure wouldn't bother with such a cannon... but if a nice CZ happened to come along...

I like my SIG P 225, but if I had the opportunity to carry a privately owned gun in my free time I just might choose something else.

The whole thing is just silly. Unfortunately there is no political party that represents the gun owner's interests over here. After the school shooting in Erfurt everybody went crazy about guns in citizen's hands, no matter if conservative or liberal.


Regards,

Trooper
 
Herr Stahl asked, "Trooper, do you really think they intended to give back even a small piece of freedom?"

I would answer that any such "give-back" would be accidental and unintentional and will become looked upon as a "loophole".

Governments' primary business is reducing freedoms, not increasing them.

Art
 
Maybe these pieces of freedom are not loopholes. They are the bait that lures you into the trap of accepting the new law. They are the sweet flavour that conceal the poison in the drink.

They say "we'll delete the §37 (which banned evil black rifles and the like)" and the gun owners are happy and think they just got something back. But the deletion of one paragraph is associated with a new black list that has been established with the new law and that can easily be enlarged by the authorities, circumvening the parliament. And by requiring that the "need" for every gun has to be backed up by the state level of your shooting association instead of your own club, they effectively prevented most shooters from being able to draw any benefit from the fall of §37.

I think I should take up Tamara on her offer to move to Tennessee. I can probably buy guns more easily as a legal alien in TN than as a German citizen in Germany. :(
 
Damn it, Mr. T, you almost made me think: "Quit the whole game, leave the club and get yourself a BB gun to shoot at tins because you won't be able to lay your hands on anything more interesting after this year..."

Seriously, the situation is very uncomfortable. But it offers some chances as well. Now is the time for some serious lobby work by the big associations.

I'll do my part and join the FWR.

And if it all becomes too much I can still emigrate to a nice, warm banana republic and offer my services to the local dictator-wannabe...


Regards,

Trooper
 
Now is the time for some serious lobby work by the big associations.

I'll do my part and join the FWR.
a) Hell will freeze over before the biggest of all, the DSB, will start lobbying for semi-auto rifles. And unfortunately the BDS and BDMP only represent a small faction of legal gun owners. :(

b) Did you just admit that you are not yet a member? :cuss: ;)
 
Um, well... I suppose... does the fact that I only recently got into shooting count as an excuse?

Oh, what the heck... YOU on the other hand have shamelessly admitted that you are a member of that government-sucking, olympic small-calibre, anti-self-defense, wussie association called DSB!!! (What does a Glock owner do there anyway??)


Regards,

Trooper
 
Oh, I joined the FWR before I got my first gun. My brother joined even before he found a club.

You'd be surprised about the number of Glocks, Berettas, Experts and semi-auto rifles in our club. (From what I hear, there are more SL8s in our club than in all of Norway ;) ) It's probably the funniest and most liberal DSB-club south of Flensburg. :D Must be the high percentage of reservists. I guess if MGs would be / would become legal, it would be the first place to find them.
BTW, it's a Glock 17L and if everything turns out right, I'll join the BDS before the end of April.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top