Getting a gifted gun home from out if state

[Tirod]

So, what we are highlighting is that regardless of family hand me down, it's Federal law you cannot give someone a firearm to take into their possession if they are a resident of another state. You literally cannot gift it without Federal oversight thru a series of FFL's.

Yes/No

I'm reading this as yes, it requires Federal oversight thru FFL's to gift a gun to a family member who lives out of state.

Do we not see how the anti gunners have made things difficult in America? The law abiding are tasked with extra fees and handling in the simple matter of a gift, and failing to ship it IAW the regulations makes people criminals.

Meanwhile the criminals - a few who might be reading this - laugh and go about their day ignoring it completely. Now add in that this is exactly what the anti gunners want to do with 100% background checks for every transfer - which included husband to wife, son, and daughter, etc. And what we see being proposed for ALL of us, even living under the same roof. It's called Universal Background Checks and this is exactly what the opponents of gun freedom want - you being investigated and paying a fee to give a gun to your family member at any time.

Do you see how a prosecutor could use this to charge your wife who takes a gun off your disabled body to protect herself in a Mall shooting?

For the sake of the OP, the thread, and the admins, lets go talk about it in another thread. This seems to be pretty much asked and answered.

 

[Elkins45]

Yes, on a handgun. I believe that it does not apply to a long gun if the the state is adjacent to the state of residence. I can legally sell a long gun to someone in Missouri, but a handgun must be sold here in Arkansas. It may vary with the Socialist states like NY, IL, or CA.

I just noticed this. This isn't correct, although it is a common misconception.

Direct interstate sales between private parties are illegal under every circumstance. You can't sell ANY gun to a resident of another state without transferring through an FFL. You can BUY a long gun from a FFL in any state, but handguns only in your state. If you spot a nice revolver in a MS gun shop you have to have it transferred to an AR dealer to do the transfer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....I'm reading this as yes, it requires Federal oversight thru FFL's to gift a gun to a family member who lives out of state....

Yes, and it's been that way for almost 50 years. It's very old news.

.....Do you see how a prosecutor could use this to charge your wife who takes a gun off your disabled body to protect herself in a Mall shooting?.....

No I don't. First, the GCA makes certain exceptions for temporary loans. Second, the legal doctrine of necessity will excuse minor violations of law when necessary to save human life. Third, prosecutors have discretion to choose not to pursue a matter, and I can't see any prosecutor filing charges under the GCA in the circumstances you've described.

 

[BigBL87]

This thread turned into more than I expected it too, but glad that it led to being informational. I talked to my FFL in Illinois and they were under the impression I didn't need to transfer via an FFL. I pushed the issue and quoted US code, they didn't really have much other than they had talked to the ATF about it at one point. They just wanted to save me money, but I told them if they would take the transfer I'd do it that way, and they said they would accepted it, just wanted a copy of my uncle's drivers license shipped with it. So, I'm going to pack it up, pay for the shipping for him, and have my uncle take it to FedEx on Monday.

 

[Frank Ettin]

This thread turned into more than I expected it too, but glad that it led to being informational. I talked to my FFL in Illinois and they were under the impression I didn't need to transfer via an FFL. I pushed the issue and quoted US code, they didn't really have much other than they had talked to the ATF about it at one point....

It's surprising how many FFLs don't understand this -- especially when it's been the law for almost fifty years.

As for talking with the ATF, when asking a regulator about something (1) it's very important that you ask the right person; and (2) the question must be posed precisely and clearly disclose all relevant information. Folks get bad information from regulators all the time.

 

[Armybrat]

About 3 years ago I bought a new Remington 1911 in Texas, sent it to an FFL in North Dakota via FedEx to be transferred to a business associate as a token gift of appreciation for hard work. Prearranged the transfer with his local FFL, and I included a money order to cover the fee. I enclosed copies of my Texas drivers license and Texas CHL.

Won't make that mistake again - the FedEx shipping & insurance was about $90. If I ever do a similar gifting in the future, will ship it from my local FFL at about half the price for their mailing service.

 

[Elkins45]

About 3 years ago I bought a new Remington 1911 in Texas, sent it to an FFL in North Dakota via FedEx to be transferred to a business associate as a token gift of appreciation for hard work. Prearranged the transfer with his local FFL, and I included a money order to cover the fee. I enclosed copies of my Texas drivers license and Texas CHL.

Won't make that mistake again - the FedEx shipping & insurance was about $90. If I ever do a similar gifting in the future, will ship it from my local FFL at about half the price for their mailing service.

Long guns can be sent through the post office. I would only use FedEx for handguns...in fact I did for a gun I sold through another forum. It cost $73 to ship a handgun from KY to AL.

I wanted to use Bud's Ship My Gun service but the buyer wanted to use his hometown FFL and they didn't want to sign up for Ship My Gun.

 

[CoalTrain49]

This thread turned into more than I expected it too, but glad that it led to being informational. I talked to my FFL in Illinois and they were under the impression I didn't need to transfer via an FFL. I pushed the issue and quoted US code, they didn't really have much other than they had talked to the ATF about it at one point. They just wanted to save me money, but I told them if they would take the transfer I'd do it that way, and they said they would accepted it, just wanted a copy of my uncle's drivers license shipped with it. So, I'm going to pack it up, pay for the shipping for him, and have my uncle take it to FedEx on Monday.

They didn't think you had to use an FFL in IL to transfer? That's a shocker.

 

[BigBL87]

They didn't think you had to use an FFL in IL to transfer? That's a shocker.

Ya. I stopped by to get the 4473 filled out when I got back into town, and the guy asked why I didn't just bring it back. I have to assume they got some bad info from someone at the ATF when they asked in the past.

Unfortunately, thanks to Uncle Sam, I'll end up spending $100 after transfer to get my gift home. To make it even more fun, it has a timing issue, or at least that's my guess as to the issue. My uncle said it was spitting out metal shavings to the side/back at him last time he shot it and had been meaning to send it in. I don't have a problem sending it in, it's a piece of family history (my grandpa used it working security and as an armored car guard) and I want to get it working, just will end up being alot spent on a "free" gun.

 

[Theohazard]

I have to assume they got some bad info from someone at the ATF when they asked in the past.

I'd be willing to bet they never got bad info regarding interstate private transfers from the ATF. I'd bet that was just an excuse they gave for giving you bad info.

Here's the thing: The ATF Industry Ops folks who regulate FFLs are pretty well versed in the 1968 GCA; the rules on interstate vs. intrastate private transfers are a key component of the GCA, a law that regulated interstate transfers and transfers from dealers. Having the ATF tell an FFL that interstate private transfers don't require an FFL is kind of like having a police officer tell you it's fine to drink and drive; neither are very likely to happen.

I think the reason most FFLs don't seem to understate the rules for private transfers under the GCA is that -- in most states -- their business doesn't involve private transfers. No FFL is going to get in trouble during an inspection because someone did an interstate private transfer. If an FFL tells someone it's fine to do an interstate private transfer without involving them, that's never going to show up in an ATF inspection.

I'm sure the guy at your FFL is like a lot of the rest of the gun-owning public, he assumes ALL private transfers don't require an FFL. And he's never had a reason to contact the ATF about it since it doesn't directly involve his business, so you're the first person to educate him on the subject.

 

[Moparnut]

Please don't berate on this. If I am the one and gifts a gun to someone. Can I take it to that state and walk in to a ffl in the other persons home state, can I have them transfer over with me standing there?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Please don't berate on this. If I am the one and gifts a gun to someone. Can I take it to that state and walk in to a ffl in the other persons home state, can I have them transfer over with me standing there?

Legally you can (subject to state law regarding your possession of a gun in the State). However, different FFls have different business policies. Some FFLs, for their own business reasons, won't do that. Some FFLs, for their own business reasons, won't accept a gun shipped by a non-licensee for transfer.

If you're going to involved in an interstate transfer you might need to shop for an FFL who is willing to handle things in a way that works for you. You might also want to shop for an FFL whose fee for handling the transfer is acceptable.

To avoid unpleasant surprises and what can become an awful mess, work out all the details with the FFL before you ship or deliver anything.

 

[redneck2]

Don't assume that, just because you talked to someone in a gun shop, that they know the law. We've all had the "I know everything/I don't know anything" experiences

When I worked at the LGS I referred all these questions to the owner

 

[Varminterror]

For the benefit of those who think otherwise, why can't the OP simply take possession and return home? Looking at this from the perspective that it's a gift from a family member.

Gifting to a "family member" is pretty well defined, and as oddly as it seems, an uncle is NOT a family member. Immediate family and direct lineage. No uncles. Been through that with the ATF personally, as I tried to gift rifles to my niece and nephews. I can gift them to my sisters (immediate family) and then them to their kids, however.

There's no requirement for a fair value sale, however, so I "gifted" my groomsmen $1, then "sold" them the real gift of SP101's. Of course, KS doesn't prohibit private party transfers without 4473's.

 

[Varminterror]

I believe that it does not apply to a long gun if the the state is adjacent to the state of residence.

There is no federal requirement for contiguous or bordering states on long guns - you can buy a rifle legally from any state in the Union. Some states have laws further restricting sales, but there is no such federal mandate. Long guns can be mailed private to FFL for interstate transfers, or private to private for intrastate transfers. Long guns can be purchased cash & carry in any state unless the state selling or the state of residence for the buyer prohibit such.

 

[dogtown tom]

TT

Gifting to a "family member" is pretty well defined, and as oddly as it seems, an uncle is NOT a family member.

Horsehockey. 100%, absolute, without a doubt horsehockey. So much horsehockey it defies belief.
No Federal law or ATF regulation defines "family member". In fact, "gifting" a firearm can be to ANYONE.....not just a family member. READ the instructions on the Form 4473 and get back to us on where it mentions "family member".

Immediate family and direct lineage. No uncles. Been through that with the ATF personally, as I tried to gift rifles to my niece and nephews. I can gift them to my sisters (immediate family) and then them to their kids, however.

That would only apply if your nephews and nieces are under the age of eighteen.....not due to them being nephews and nieces!
Again, you are spouting 100% absolute nonsense. You experiences are invented, made up, false, laughable and without a shred of truth. You need to stop posting on this forum as what you've written has absolutely no basis in any Federal law regarding firearms or any ATF regulation.

There's no requirement for a fair value sale, however, so I "gifted" my groomsmen $1, then "sold" them the real gift of SP101's.

You did what? Your understanding of Federal law/ATF regulations is zero. This post is comedy gold.... "hey, can you believe what this one guy said on THR?"

I weep for America when I read a post like this.

 

[Varminterror]

Looks like we have yet another licensee who doesn't know the laws governing his own business.

 

[dogtown tom]

Looks like we have yet another licensee who doesn't know the laws governing his own business.

Then show me where I'm wrong smart guy.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Looks like we have yet another licensee who doesn't know the laws governing his own business.

No, I'm afraid we have a confused member here.

I'm out until later tonight. But when I get home I'll sort it all out for you.

 

[Theohazard]

Yeah, Varminterror, you're wrong. There is no exemption for firearm transfers to family members under federal law. And there is no distinction between gifts or sales.

Looks like we have yet another licensee who doesn't know the laws governing his own business.

I've managed at two different high-volume gun shops. I've been through enough ATF inspections that I'm on a first-name basis with a few ATF Industry Ops folks. I make a point to understand the laws regarding firearms and the ATF's regulations. And I can tell you that Tom really knows his stuff. He knows more than I do on this subject. Just because his delivery is less tactful than you may like, that doesn't make him wrong.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Gifting to a "family member" is pretty well defined, and as oddly as it seems, an uncle is NOT a family member. Immediate family and direct lineage. No uncles. Been through that with the ATF personally, as I tried to gift rifles to my niece and nephews. I can gift them to my sisters (immediate family) and then them to their kids, however....

That is all balderdash.

• Under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), the relevant federal law here, familial relationships are irrelevant. The rules and requirement applicable to transfers (of possession) of a firearm from one person to another are the same without regard to any familial relationship. So --
  
  
  • Any transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another must go through an FFL (with some narrow exceptions -- see post 24 for a detailed discussion of relevant federal law). It doesn't matter if the transferor and transferee are related by blood or marriage. It doesn't matter whether the transfer is a gift, a sale or anything else. The same rules (as defined by the statutes cited in post 24) apply to all interstate transfers whoever the parties are and whatever the form of the transfer.
    
    
  • Other provisions of the GCA prohibit interstate or intrastate transfers of firearms to certain classes of persons, e. g., convicted felons, certain nonimmigrant aliens, etc. Again, for the purposes of the application of these rules it doesn't matter if the transferor and transferee are related by blood or marriage, or complete strangers, nor does It matter whether the transfer is a gift, a sale or anything else. The same rules apply whoever the parties are and whatever the form of the transfer.
    
    
  • So federal law doesn't define "family member" for the purposes of the GCA, and there is no reason "family member" needs to be defined for the purposes of the GCA.
  
  
• However, it may well be that various laws of various States do define "family member" for various firearm related purposes. This will be most common in States that regulate the private, intrastate transfer of firearms (e. g., States with universal background check requirements). So --
  
  
  • While California generally requires all transfers of a firearm to go through an FFL, an exceptin is made for the transfer of a firearm between a parent/grandparent to-or-from a child/grandchild. However, the transferee must file a form notifying the Department of Justice of the transfer, pay a fee, and have a current Firearm Safety Certificate (or be exempt).
    
    
  • Of course an such intrafamilial exceptions apply only if the transferor and transferee are residents of the same State. If they aren't, federal law will still require that transfer be done through an FFL.

There is no federal requirement for contiguous or bordering states on long guns - you can buy a rifle legally from any state in the Union....

This is misleading in a number of ways:

• As previously pointed out by others, the contiguous state exception for long guns has been removed from the GCA.
  
  
• While federal law allows someone to receive transfer of a long gun in a State other than his State of residence, there are a number of significant requirements:
  
  
  • The transfer still must be done by an FFL.
    
    
  • The long gun must be legal for the transferee to possess in his State of residence.
    
    
  • The transfer must comply with the laws of both the transferee's State of residence and the State in which the transfer takes place.
  
  
• So it's not true that federal law allows one to buy a long gun in any State. He may only do so if the above described requirements of federal law can be satisfied.

...Long guns can be purchased cash & carry in any state unless the state selling or the state of residence for the buyer prohibit such.

No. Under federal law a long gun may not be purchased "cash-and-carry" if the transferor and transferee are residents of different States. Such transfers are interstate transfers and must go through an FFL.

And of course if the transferor and transferee are residents of the same State, a long gun may be purchased "cash-and-carry" only if permitted under state law.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Ya. I stopped by to get the 4473 filled out when I got back into town, and the guy asked why I didn't just bring it back. I have to assume they got some bad info from someone at the ATF when they asked in the past.

Unfortunately, thanks to Uncle Sam, I'll end up spending $100 after transfer to get my gift home. To make it even more fun, it has a timing issue, or at least that's my guess as to the issue. My uncle said it was spitting out metal shavings to the side/back at him last time he shot it and had been meaning to send it in. I don't have a problem sending it in, it's a piece of family history (my grandpa used it working security and as an armored car guard) and I want to get it working, just will end up being alot spent on a "free" gun.

Send it back to Ruger. I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you get the bill. Call them and ask them to send you a FedEx or UPS shipping label via an email. Ask the person if they can pay the freight. When I sent my MKII in for them to install a rail the guy told me he would try to get Ruger to pay the shipping cost. They did. The gun was about 30 years old so I would say it was out of warranty. Rugers shipping rate is a lot less than yours would be and sometimes they just pay it as a token of goodwill I guess. Their policy is two years on the shipping but it depends on how the rep codes it. One question he asked is have you had Ruger do repair work in the past. If you have I would say they are going to see you as return customer and waive the shipping. Doesn't hurt to ask. They want your business.

 

[BigBL87]

Somehow I don't think Ruger will fix my Taurus...

That being said, I think I probably will end up sending it in to Taurus pretty quick. Probably going to send it via my FFL assuming they'll do it to save some money. I'd rather be sure I can safely shoot it, even though I won't shoot it often.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Somehow I don't think Ruger will fix my Taurus...

That being said, I think I probably will end up sending it in to Taurus pretty quick. Probably going to send it via my FFL assuming they'll do it to save some money. I'd rather be sure I can safely shoot it, even though I won't shoot it often.

Taurus. I missed that. I have a Taurus revolver but never had an issue with it. Owned it for 30 twenty years.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It looks like this thread has run its course.