Getting Sued re: reloads?

[Trent]

I don't give reloads to friends.

But I've taught many of them to reload for themselves.

Given the two choices, I'd rather field an occasional "tech support" call and go with the philosophy of "teach a man to fish"...

 

[buck460XVR]

You'll have to read the whole debate to get the details, but it was a more complex argument than that.

It wasn't that the reloads couldn't be tested. It was a "chain of custody" problem using ammo made by the defendant to support his/her claims when that ammo's production details were not independently verifiable by a disinterested party, the manufacturer.

The reason the tests would not be admitted was because the defendant claimed he had mixed powder charges in the box the wife took the ammo from and it could not be determined which powder charge was in the round that killed her. It was not a SD/HD charge the defendant was facing but a murder charge. Not being able to determine the range the bullet was fired from helped his cause.....The prosecution claimed the gun was fired from short range by the husband, the defense said the wife put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger. This is why, IMHO, it's foolish to relate this case to SD/HD.

That said, my family and friends use my reloads in my guns. I do not give reloads to anybody, nor do I take reloads from others. I trust my reloading practices enough that I figure the odds of something bad happening and my losing my lifestyle over it are less than getting hit with a meteorite. I do tho always have a few boxes of factory ammo in my range bags for those times when others(such as the friends of my sons or work associates ) are along at the range.

 

[DM~]

Durning the years i had my ammo mfg license, i was told by an ATF agent that it was against the law to sell, to give away or even let someone fire reloaded ammo UNLESS the reloader of the ammo had an ammo MFG license. Anyone, included family members, neighbors, friends or anyone else...

I was told that the loop hole, was to let the person that the reloaded ammo was going to, reload his own ammo on your equipment.

I was also told, IF the person getting the ammo happen to get injured by the gun while shooting your reloads, (even if it was their own fault) you were liable, and would have to defend yourself in court.

I never give away/sell reloads, i will let someone load their own ammo on my equipment though, as long as i'm with them to see that they are doing it right.

DM

 

[918v]

That's the problem when law enforcement gives legal advice.

 

[holdencm9]

Yeah, 918v, considering cops don't always know the laws of their local jurisdiction, I doubt a typical ATF agent knows the ins and outs of every single law either. And of course if they are unsure, they will always err on the side of "don't do anything even remotely gray area!"

I would still be really eager to hear of any cases that have been tried or an actual lawyer to chime in here.

 

[Spats McGee]

. . . .I would still be really eager to hear of any cases that have been tried or an actual lawyer to chime in here.

I am an actual lawyer.

 

[holdencm9]

yeah but you just punted on the latter issue of the OP and I am guessing your hourly fee is too much to satisfy my curiosity of the matter

 

[DM~]

That's the problem when law enforcement gives legal advice.

Could be, but i was at an BATF seminar ABOUT the laws, for gun dealers holding gun sales and ammo mfg. licenses...

I'd think they held those seminars KNOWING what they are talking about, as they are the ones that come to the shops to enforce the laws...

DM

 

[Spats McGee]

yeah but you just punted on the latter issue of the OP and I am guessing your hourly fee is too much to satisfy my curiosity of the matter

If I sounded snarky, please accept my apologies. That wasn't my intent. On punting the issue of legal liability if someone else shoots the reloads, yeah, I did punt. I don't know enough about that area of the law to be of much help there, and I'm probably not licensed in your jurisdiction.

 

[holdencm9]

If I sounded snarky, please accept my apologies. That wasn't my intent. On punting the issue of legal liability if someone else shoots the reloads, yeah, I did punt. I don't know enough about that area of the law to be of much help there, and I'm probably not licensed in your jurisdiction.

I didn't think so, I was just trying to make a lawyer joke (ya'll are expensive hahaha) I couldn't afford to commission you to look into it for me. I think for now even though there hasn't been any case history shown, I will just have to err on the side of safety with the gray area.

I'd think they held those seminars KNOWING what they are talking about, as they are the ones that come to the shops to enforce the laws...

DM, I get what you are saying, it just confuses me how they go from saying it is illegal

if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

to

[it is] against the law to sell, to give away or even let someone fire reloaded ammo UNLESS the reloader of the ammo had an ammo MFG license. Anyone, included family members, neighbors, friends or anyone else...

Seems like a jump.

 

[blarby]

DM, I get what you are saying, it just confuses me how they go from saying it is illegal

Quote:
if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.
to

Quote:
[it is] against the law to sell, to give away or even let someone fire reloaded ammo UNLESS the reloader of the ammo had an ammo MFG license. Anyone, included family members, neighbors, friends or anyone else...
Seems like a jump.

And therein lies the rub.

 

[1SOW]

I have yet to see any significant examples of reloaded SD ammo being cause for a civil suit related to said ammo being used for SD.

There sure is plenty of talk about it, but no facts.

 

[holdencm9]

And therein lies the rub.

Regarding the legality,

The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”

So there definitely seems to be a disparity with what the BATF agent said, and what the law says. Unless you use some weird logic, I don't see how selling a box or two of reloads to a buddy for the cost of the components is illegal. Actually it seems you even could make a small profit off of it, just as long as it is not the principal objective of your reloading operation. Also, in this same vain, it should be legal to "build" an AR and sell it to a buddy, shouldn't it? As long as you aren't paying your mortgage that way. I hear of people doing that all the time. Or is it just about intent? So if you reload a box, and never intend to sell it, but a buddy and you are at the range and he runs out of ammo and asks if he can't buy a box, you sell it to him, is that illegal.

Why can't laws ever be simple? :banghead:

 

[blarby]

Why can't laws ever be simple?

Because its easier to snag the ignorant that way.

 

[918v]

Why can't laws ever be simple?

The "What if's"