Gold dot ammo and a bad ballistics jell test.

[DasFriek]

Here is the deal, Id like to discuss this one certain test a guy did on .45acp 200gr +P Gold Dots that failed badly.
How can such a great round like the GD have just one certain load be a failure?
Or do you question the methods or ammo batch?
If you look at all his other testing everything else did well with 4 layers of denim even tho i find this isnt the best test as no one wears for layers of denim for a shirt.


http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_200grGDHP.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

As has been reported for many years, the Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 200 gr +P JHP is NOT recommended for duty use. This load has demonstrated numerous failures to expand both in lab testing and in actual officer involved shooting incidents; it also has exhibited numerous failures to feed and function in a variety of .45 ACP pistol types.

Would you ignore the test as a fluke or bad testing, Or would you definitely stay away from that exact load?

 

[Buck Snort]

If I'm ever called upon to shoot somebody wearing 4 layers of denim I'll definitely switch out my 200 gr. Gold Dots!!

 

[DBR]

The 230gr Gold Dot has done very well in these test. Why not use it? I do.

 

[DasFriek]

Buck Snort- Thats pretty much what i said to myself. Plus i think i could just outrun a guy wearing 4 pairs of jeans on. lol

DBR- That wasn't my question, I have a reason for not using the 230gr GD.
And while im not calling all of the tests into question, I am calling just this one test into question.

I have 230gr +P Ranger T-series if i felt i need to switch.

 

[357_]

Plus i think i could just outrun a guy wearing 4 pairs of jeans on. lol

This sums it up perfectly.

Stop worrying about what the bullet is going to do and start worrying about how you're going to do.

 

[B1gGr33n]

I could see 4 layers of denim being a feasible test. Up here in North country when it's cold, it's common for people to wear leather, Carhaart, denim jackets, etc ON TOP OF hoodies, denim or flannel shirts, etc. Basically layers on layers because it's very effective insulation.

 

[Ben86]

If you look at all his other testing everything else did well with 4 layers of denim even tho i find this isnt the best test as no one wears for layers of denim for a shirt.

Ever heard of a Canadian suit?

I've always thought they should just use t-shirt material, 4 layers of denim is a little over kill. For .45 I go 230 grain so this doesn't bother me.

 

[Water-Man]

There was a problem with the 200gr. Gold Dots a few years ago. I don't know about now. I only use the 230gr.

 

[fastbolt]

The 4-layer denim barrier test is essentially an engineering test to determine the ability of a hollowpoint bullet design to consistently resist plugging and exhibit robust expansion. A correlation has been found between rounds that actually expand well in real shootings and rounds which pass this particular test.

I don't have the details at hand (perhaps Dr Gary Roberts could provide them), but I thought I recalled that Speer revised their 200gr GDHP to perform better in the 4-layer denim test about the time they were working on the .45GAP load (or just before), which uses a 200gr GDHP in one loading.

Rather than worry about it I just use the 230gr GDHP .45 ACP load when I occasionally decide to use a Speer load in one of my .45's. I prefer the advantages of the standard pressure loads to the +P loads, for the most part, given the choice. I have a supply the previous & current RA45TP (230gr +P T-Series) loads along with the RA45T loads (standard pressure), and I prefer to use the RA45T in most of my .45's.

I can remember a range session several years ago when a small bureau issued new G30's to its folks, along with 200gr +P loads, and at least half a dozen of the folks experienced repeated feeding & functioning issues during the transition session at the range that day. I heard a lot of comments related to how a number of the shooters disliked the amount of felt recoil, so I suppose it's not impossible for some shooter-related issues (like grip support) to have been involved.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's why I like the .45. I once talked to a guy that bragged his 9mms expanded to "almost half an inch."

Well, shoot! My .45s start out that wide!

 

[DasFriek]

I can see how the test is valid to a point, But to dismiss the round due to it would be wrong imo.

There is a reason i don't use the 230gr loads, The gun is a 3.5" barreled 1911 and i don't feel enough fps can be had for reliable expansion.
Its good to hear that Speer may have re-engineered the round just to err on the side of safety. Ive not been able to run alot of rounds of these 200gr GD's threw the gun due to cost, But i will be doing more once i can find them as its not a popular load.
I have Ranger T-series 230gr +P in my 5" 1911 and ill be ordering more and since availability is much better i may switch back to that as it was my original load i carried in the gun. Plus that T-series supposedly chrono's at 990 fps 40fps faster than everything else in its class so its a slight boost.

This is just an odd situation which i promised myself id stop sweating the small details.
But this one test really bugged me.
I think ill try some more Ranger T's threw the gun and see how i like those as it would be easier to keep the same ammo in both guns since i ccw with both.

 

[Water-Man]

Sounds like you're still sweating the small details. Stop worrying and just use either Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger T's or Federal HST and you'll be fine.

 

[Steve C]

You never know what the BG will be wearing or will happen with a bullet, if it will expand or not. What you do know is that with the .45 you're making a .451" diameter hole in your target. Make that hole in the right place and expansion will be rather irrelevant. If it does expand, so much the better.

 

[deacon8]

Well, if the test is valid, the "bad guy" is still going to have a very bad day. From what I in interpret, through four layers of denim, the 200 grain round still expands over 1/2" and penetrates over 18". That is a 1/2" hole with an exit. The matter would be different if you lost penetration. However, this is not the case. Sounds to me like the round would still be wonderfully effective.

So in conclusion: The round expands less, but penetrates 7" more. Even if it doesn't expand at all, you're still left with an exit hole at 1/2"! Therefore, the bullet doesn't necessarily do what it's supposed to, but is still very effective. In fact, if the bullet fails to expand correctly, it acts as a FMJ. And as we all know, that is a great bullet choice in a .45. So I'm not really sure what people are worried about. It's either going to expand 3/4" and penetrate 12", or it's going to fail to expand and penetrate 18". Sounds fine to me!

 

[swede4198]

At least two of the partialy expanded rounds would have tumbled before exiting which should have made a real mess in a person.

 

[DasFriek]

I could imagine just what the 4 that didn't fully expand would do as it passed threw a body while spinning and tumbling, Pretty devastating no matter how you look at it.

Well im not gonna sweat this as i think if the test was rerun it wouldn't have the same results. I just have a hard time believing any Gold Dots would do so poorly today.