"Gun regulation" not "gun control"

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BigRugerLover

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I've seen a liberal talking point recently about "regulating guns," as in "...a well-regulated militia..." ie., its not "gun control," - its "gun regulation," which, they say, is right there in the second amendment already.

Does anybody here know enough about constitutional law to analyze that approach?

Yes, I know that part about "shall not be infringed," the one we've (almost) all been quoting, and of course i agree, but what I mention above is new to me.
 
Far as I know, what is well-regulated is the militia, not a well-regulated firearm for the militia.

regulated past participle, past tense of reg·u·late (Verb)
Verb

1 Control or maintain the rate or speed of (a machine or process) so that it operates properly.
2 Control or supervise (something, esp. a company or business activity) by means of rules and regulations.
 
"Well regulated" is discussed thoroughly in the papers of those who drafted 2A. It has nothing to do with rules regarding the firearms--it's about training and discipline of people.

That's part of why we encourage gun owners to get proper firearms and self defense training and to be prudent in their gun-related activities.
 
Read Justice Scalia's opinion in Heller. It's long, but it spells out exactly what is meant by the wording in the second amendment. I don't see why the pro-gun members of congress aren't bringing this up. They could almost use this and say virtually any gun ban that is on the table currently is unconstitutional.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
 
Lurked here for many years but I have a very low post count. I consider the folks here at THR to be on the top of their game with all aspects of what's discussed here and never felt I had much to contribute.

"To ensure the people have a means to suppress an enemy, the people have a right to the tools necessary to do so and no one can say otherwise" is the NosaMSirhC translation of the Second Amendment.

I too have been conflicted about what "Well Regulated" actually meant to the Framers. I think it is Federalist Paper 29 that does a pretty good job of spelling it out to a layman like me. My interpretation of "Well Regulated" based on that does mean "organized" as they felt that a standing army was illegal.

Granted, I'm just a stupid network engineer and know nothing about law or the English language.

I realize that politics is a no-no here at THR and if a moderator feels this post is contrary to the terms of service I understand...

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"well regulated" means practiced and skillful.
Think "they were marching in regular order" or something like that.
The liberals/progressives/socialists/communists see the word regulated and they get all excited, but this use of the term has nothing to do with laws and restrictions.
 
just because the word "regulated" is in the 2A doesnt mean that firearms can be 'regulated'......it doesnt work that way.

"regulated" is not in context with "the right to keep an bear arms"......

thats like trying to argue that since the 2A contains the word "infringed", that its alright to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms.
 
I think that this is another use of language by our opponents to obfuscate their true aims. Originally they were hot to trot for "Gun Control". Then they realized that if they said "Gun Safety" people would not have as adverse a reaction to the message they are spreading. After all, who would think that increasing "Gun Safety" is a bad thing? Never mind that it meant the exact same thing as "Gun Control". Now we may possibly be seeing a further evolution of their language with "Gun Regulation" as the new catchphrase. It's not really control, it's just "sensible regulation". Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I think it behooves us to keep our language simple and directly to the point. Keep using the phrase "Gun Control" in any rebuttal you offer and do not let them get away with portraying their position as something it is not.
MR
 
with what this nation had just gone thru to become free from england, the founders knew that they would have to have a standing army. either regular payed soilders or their version of the national guard(milita). they also knew the evils of a standing army. they knew history and it proved when a country had a strong military, it was always used in the end to enslave it,s population. they wrote the second in hope of giving the average citizen the tools(guns) to stop this. i believe the original entent was that the civilian was to have the right to own anything the government had in its arsenal. cannon and muskets of the same type the army had. now we can,t possibly own m-1 tanks and f 16s today. cost too much. but we can own the light weapons almost equal to our military. the advantage we have is numbers. 10000 men standing against a force of 2000 have a damn good chance of victory. volume of fire often wins the fight. and just as the british regulars who were all but wiped out on the retreat from lexington and concord, we have learned how a poorly armed army can defeat one with unlimited resources, vietnam, afghanatsan, irag. sorry, declaring victory and coming home is not winning. no force on earth can defeat an enemy that won,t stand. we won our freedom by not fighting like gentlemen. our revolt was an example of how to defeat a superior force. let,s not forget those lessons
 
According to Scalia, the second amendment is broken up into two phrases. It has a perfatory clause and an operative clause. He tells us that the first phrase anounces a purpose, rather than limiting the second phrase. He also states that the second amendment could be re-written as "Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. Scalia states that the way the second amendment is written is unique to the U.S. constitution, but there are other examples in state constitutions at the time that use the same kind of language when it come to individual rights.

He then breaks it down, starting with "The right of the people." The unamended constitution uses the phrase "the right of the people" two other times (in the first amendment and fourth amendment). These refer to individual rights, and not collective rights that are only granted when acting with others.

Three other times in the constitution are "the people" referred to when not talking about rights ("We the people...," the tenth amendment referring to that powers not granted to the federal government are given to the states or "the people," and Article I, which says that "the people" will elect members of the House). These all refer to "the people" collectively, but each time a right is outlined in the constitution, it refers to "the people" individually.

Scalia then says that "the people" refers to members of society, rather than a subset of that society, such as a militia.

He next breaks down "keep and bear arms." Scalia tells us that in Samual Johnson's 1773 dictionary, arms meant "weapons of offence, or armour of defence." Another dictionary described arms as "any thing a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands, or useth in wrath to cast at or strike another." It was used in reference to weapons that were not necessarily used by the military. The example Scalia gives is from a legal dictionary saying, "servants and labourers shall use bows and arrows on Sundays, and not bear other arms."

Scalia then says that the argument that the constitution only refers to arms at the time the constitution was written is incorrect. He states that the constitution is not interpreted that way.

He then examines the phrases "keep arms" and "bear arms." According to dictionaries, "keep" means "to retain; not to lose" and "to have in custody." He states that the phrase "keep arms" was not often used during this time, but the examples they found referred to an individual right. An English writing at the time stated that Catholics who were convicted of not going to church were not allowed to "keep arms in their houses."

Scalia tells us that "bear arms" has a meaning of carrying firearms. He points to an opinion written by Justice Ginsburg which uses "bear" in the same context of wearing and carrying for "offensive or defensive action in case of conflict with another person." He also states that in the historical readings, "bear arms" had a meaning not connected with the military. State constitutions at the time held that people had the right to bear arms in defense of themselves.

Putting those two parts of the second amendment together, Scalia states that individuals have the right to own guns in case of confrontations. He then turns to "well-regulated militia." He states that according to US vs. Miller, a militia is made up of "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense." Scalia tells us that anti's say that the militia refers to the state and national militaries. Scalia states that Congress is given the constitutional power to create armies and navies. However, Article I of the constitution assumes that the militia is already in existence, and it gives congress the power to "provide for calling forth the militia." If the militia were not already created, Scalia claims that the constitution would refer the "a" militia, rather than "the" militia. Thus this implies that the militia is already existing.

Scalia then defines "well-regulated." He states that this phrase means well-disciplined and trained. After this, he defines "security of a free state." He states that this refers to the community as a whole, rather than individual states.


Sorry this is long, but it the way this is broken down needs to be put out there. This ruling I think is still the most recent ruling with regards to the second amendment. The way that Scalia breaks down the wording and uses historical references to back up his argument is amazing in my opinion. This should be one of our main arguments. I hope I did a good enough job of explaining it.
 
Kind of like "hereditary involuntary servitude" vs. "slavery", or "inter-generational sex" vs. "child molestation".

That's what's called a "distinction without a difference".

Anti-gunners are every bit as dishonest as N.A.M.B.L.A.
 
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"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!" -

Samuel Adams, Letter to John Pitts, January 21, 1776
 
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