GunDocx Trusts, Seeking Opinions

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IdahoSkies

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After hemming and hawing about getting a firearms trust I have convinced the wife that such an arrangement would be a good idea. From what I have seen there is this "brand" of trust being marketed, a GunDocx trust (with varying levels).

What I would like to know is whether a GunDocx trust is that much better than a trust from a local estate planning attorney (specifically one who has done other NFA/Firearms trusts in the past).

What do I get when I buy the brand versus a "no-name"? Thanks for your help.
 
Just looking at their website, Gundocx appears to be your typical software driven form trust - you answer some questions and based on those questions it chooses pre-drafted forms for you to print out and follow.

The two big differences are that it appears to be written with NFA trusts in mind and there is a network of licensed attorneys who are willing to assist you with questions (though probably not for free).

A local estate attorney is going to be comparable (in terms of services offered) to the Gold level of service - custom drafting, all options, legal advice, etc.

One thing I would look at is their network of attorneys and see if there are any that are nearby and convenient to you. If you can't access the legal advice that is part of the package, it doesn't help you much.
 
My bad, the software is actually being marketed to laywers, though I suppose anyone could buy it, though since it costs several times more than most gun trusts and has a monthly fee, I doubt many would be interested.

As far as what you get compared to any other lawyer drafted trust, the software just assists in drafting the trust and in theory reduces the opportunities for making small formatting errors or screwing something up. It is only as good as the software writers made it. It will have to be updated as the law changes (a recurring problem with Quicken trusts) which is what I assume the monthly fee is for.

As far as differences... it is kind of like a mass production approach to law. As it is now, a legal document is like every car was built by hand for a specific customer. Every mechanic is going to build it a little differently - even if it is being built for the same customer and same purpose. The next car they build is going to be a little different from the last one.

This system will make every document more consistent and uniform; but it will still only be as good as the underlying "design". The lawyer's job using this is to recognize when the computer drafted forms aren't the best answer and to change them as necessary.
 
I used a Gundocx trust and had no problem getting my .22 suppressor approved. I have a .308 one in the pipeline and have no idea if they will approve it even though it's to be held in the same trust.

In any event, the trust cost around $95 if I recall correctly.
 
Looks like it is two different programs - one that sells gun trusts via a network of attorneys and then a second marketing effort that sells the software to attorneys and adds their name to the network.

They have 3 levels: Bronze, Silver and Gold. The Silver and Gold trusts are basically comparable in price to what a local estate lawyer is likely to charge. The Bronze is very cheap but appears to be similar to a Quicken form trust (normally $30) rewritten to be specific to NFA.
 
As a lawyer, I know enough to know that NFA trusts are NOT something you 'dabble' in. Get it wrong, and it's a SERIOUS crime... not just some trivial loss of money. And if it's wrong from initiation, hard to fix.

We're not talking about small claims court, or Quicken Lawyer for drafting a letter to a bank...

If you're dropping the coin on a NFA weapon, you have the coin to spend on an NFA lawyer drafted custom trust...



My 2 cents.
 
I agree completely. Yes you can use Quicken or other online forms but there is a lot of very NFA specific language in my attorney-written trust document, and I sleep very well at night knowing it was drafted by an experienced NFA knowledgeable attorney.

Remember, BATF does not decide on the legality of trust documents. All they do is look at then to be sure they "appear" correct. They are far more interested in the registration part of the process. You don't want to spend big bucks on an NFA item only to find out later that the trust documents aren't properly written. That time might not be until you die and the trust is called on to disburse the items, and if the trust is not right, the contents can't be transferred. It's well worth the money to be sure it's written correctly.
 
For $95 you can use a generic "trust in a box" - but who do you call if you have other questions, like what happens if I move out of state?

The attorney I refer customers to in my area does them for $200, and she has the answers to these questions. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
I'm a lawyer also, and I dont see it as that big of a deal....for myself anyway, wouldnt recommend pro se on this. Either they will approve it or not. The chances of them coming back on you later and throwing you in jail is basically non existant...once approved.

I can only find a single instance where they "came back on" someone, and it was a snakey deal from someone out of country that shouldn't have been granted one to start with.

The biggest risk would be the part concerning who inherits what...this is where trust law can lead to problems, problems that blow up decades later. Again, not that hard for an attorney to do.

I have looked at other Gun trusts successfully done, and in my opinion it really isnt that big of a deal.

Russellc
 
For $95 you can use a generic "trust in a box" - but who do you call if you have other questions, like what happens if I move out of state?
Click to expand...

This is a software-drafted trust but it is specifically geared to NFA and only sold through attorneys. So you would have an attorney to contact; however for $95 it doesn't look like you get much. It mentions that you can't do multiple trustees at that level (which is one of the main reasons to have a trust IMO) and is basically your "trust in a box" rewritten to be NFA specific.

At the Silver and Gold levels, you get much more service but you are already paying the same price you would to most local estate attorneys. Honestly, given what little they offer at the Bronze level, it looks like it exists mainly to lure people in for the upsell to Silver or Gold.
 
I asked my family members who are lawyers this question. They said that any Quicken type trust may or may not get approved, but that's not the issue. The problem lies when you die or whoever inherits the NFA item. That's where it could get hairy.
 
Let's take my .22 Guardian suppressor for example, I paid $200 for it, including WA sales tax. $200 to BATFE, $95 to Gundocx.

This suppressor has a big fat zero resale value, even to a resident of WA. It is worth nothing. However it has a great deal of value to me, personally, while I'm alive.

When I no longer walk the earth, my beneficiary will arrange for it's destruction and retirement.

I suppose if I had heirs I wanted to pass it on to, it might make sense to cast a wider net concerning it's inheritance value. Even a $1000 suppressor has questionable value; the $200 tax stamp for a form 4 isn't going away, or going down anytime soon. The six month wait isn't getting less anytime soon. And the technology is advancing fast enough that today's whizz-bang is tomorrow's ho-hum.

For me at least, I view a suppressor's value in the here-and-now; if a $95 Gundocx trust get's me there, excellent!
 
Yes, I think bikemutt's situation is one of those areas where a form trust can be the right answer. And, you can amend trusts so it isn't as if he has to keep a form trust if he later wins the lotto and buys a transferable SAW :)
 
I am also interested in teh basic trust option. I went to the Gundocx website but didn't see a clear way to get one set up?
 
bill3424 said:
I asked my family members who are lawyers this question. They said that any Quicken type trust may or may not get approved, but that's not the issue. The problem lies when you die or whoever inherits the NFA item. That's where it could get hairy.
Click to expand...
Ask them how many gun trusts they have done, I'm sure the number will be zero. That is the typical response you will get from lawyers, and this is why: Estates and trusts are gigantic brewers of future problems, complaints against attorneys, and litigation. When its an estate, and the whole thing blows up 20-30 years later, the lawyers estate may get sued! With this stuff, what's at risk isnt a family fortune, its usually a silencer or two. Again, This isnt that big of a deal. No one is "pulling the wool" over anyones eyes. The Fed IS ALLOWING you to do this.

Russellc
 
I can only find a single instance where they "came back on" someone
Click to expand...

I've read of two separate cases where ATF denied a trust that had already been used for a previous Form 1 or Form 4. In both cases, ATF sent demand letters out telling the trust to turn over the NFA items in their possession. However, since I wasn't involved in either case I don't know how that played out ultimately for the person involved or whether criminal charges were filed.

I doubt that a Gundocx trust is going to be denied since it is filled out by an attorney. Even the Quicken trusts are difficult (though not impossible) to screw up. The common errors I've seen are making the settlor, beneficiary and trustee the same person or failing to fund the trust at inception.
 
leadcounsel said:
As a lawyer, I know enough to know that NFA trusts are NOT something you 'dabble' in. Get it wrong, and it's a SERIOUS crime... not just some trivial loss of money. And if it's wrong from initiation, hard to fix.

We're not talking about small claims court, or Quicken Lawyer for drafting a letter to a bank...

If you're dropping the coin on a NFA weapon, you have the coin to spend on an NFA lawyer drafted custom trust...



My 2 cents.
Click to expand...
I dont believe this for a minute. It isnt true. mess it up, and it wont get approved. Lie or do something illegal and its a problem for sure. the federal government is a worthy adversary, and has acess to all the money they need to prosecute. Fill it out wrong, and it wont get approved. They dont go through "approved" forms looking to prosecute later, either you get approved or you dont.

As a Lawyer, I dont engage in any type of legal practice without first getting competent with the subject matter. It is unethical for an attorney to do otherwise. getting competent isnt that difficult, just takes due diligence to get up to speed. This isnt that difficult, everybody just wants to put a spin on it, making it sound like you are getting away with it. No more difficult than a divorce for an attorney.

The Only, repeat only case I can find where the fed did anything remotely like what everyone is fearing, was a case where misrepresented facts were given and the person making application shouldnt have been allowed to be cleared in the first place...seems like it was a citizenship issue if I remember correctly.

Russellc
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
I've read of two separate cases where ATF denied a trust that had already been used for a previous Form 1 or Form 4. In both cases, ATF sent demand letters out telling the trust to turn over the NFA items in their possession. However, since I wasn't involved in either case I don't know how that played out ultimately for the person involved or whether criminal charges were filed.

I doubt that a Gundocx trust is going to be denied since it is filled out by an attorney. Even the Quicken trusts are difficult (though not impossible) to screw up. The common errors I've seen are making the settlor, beneficiary and trustee the same person or failing to fund the trust at inception.
Click to expand...
First off, something isnt straight about this story....you dont "have" nfa item then apply for the trust. You purchase, but the items remain with the licensed dealer until you are cleared. If they seized them from the licensed dealer, first there is a huge due process issue there, plus if the lawyer was negligent in setting up the trust you can sue him.

Please provide cases please, I would like to see them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding...

Russellc
 
You appear to misunderstand the case. The person had already purchased an NFA item in the past using the trust. They went to purchase another NFA item and the ATF informed them the trust was invalid and in some cases sought forfeiture of the NFA item.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38360
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-and-seizure-from-invalid.html

Neither of those links were the cases I was talking about AFAIK; but having difficulty finding them at the moment. Both of them show similar situations though (though it appears no forfeiture actually happened in the second link).
 
Anyone know where I can go to get a bronze Gundocx trust set up in Texas? Their website seemed more geared at selling their package to layers than steering people interested in getting a trust
 
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