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Guns and Gays: Similar core issue on different sides of the aisle?

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by Slappy McGee, Apr 15, 2008.

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  1. Slappy McGee

    Slappy McGee Member

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    I was thinking while sitting in traffic that gun rights and gay rights have similar foundational issues. Before your head explodes, hear me out (no, I am not gay).

    Both pro sides have fair factual arguments, and also to a large extent are a lifestyle choice. Owning a gun does not turn someone into the next crazed killer mall commando just as being gay does not turn you into a bad parody of 1980's Elton John bent on "converting" the nations youth.

    Gun ownership is not something that is taken lightly by most. If I am going to own a firearm for self-defence I am making certain assumptions and take on certain responsibilities while being shunned by many elements of society. Similarly, if you've every known a gay person who has come out of the closet, they generally take a similar amount of criticism from large elements of society and rarely do it without very thoughtful reflection.

    At the end of the day, both pro sides often lament "Hey, why do you care so much if I own guys/am gay? Why can't you just leave me alone and let me exercise my perceived right. I'm not the 'bad guy' here and am a consenting adult of majority age who likely will never cause you personal harm (although perhaps some personal inconvenience)."

    Both pro sides also feel they are often "sold out" by the political party that supposedly has their interests at heart.

    Either anti side, when it gets to its core, seems to revolve around evil and protecting children. Guns are evil. They kill children. Gay are evil. How am I going to explain two men/women kissing to my child? The Bible says gays are the scourge of the Earth. The NY Times says guns are the scourge of the Earth.

    Both of these anti arguments have some basis in fact. While it's not as frequent as the media might state, yes, there have been accidental and malicious firearms deaths. If you take out all the "scourge from god" nonsense surrounding AIDS, yes it was more frequent in the gay population initially, and yes, your children might have some uncomfortable questions if they see a gay couple showing their affection in public. The pro side to either would say "Hey, freedom isn't free and preserving our rights will occasionally cost a life or two."

    What's interesting is that despite the fairly obvious similarities, pro-gun and anti-gay are traditionally "conservative" values, while anti-gun and pro-gay are traditionally "liberal" values, and both are usually on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Most of the most rabidly anti-gun states are also the most pro-gay states and vice versa.

    What if the pro-gun community reached out to the pro-gay community and said "Hey, let's agree to disagree on our respective topics, but work to preserve each other's rights, since this is a civil liberties issue that transcends what you or I think is 'evil?'" Talk about a "rainbow coalition!"

    Thoughts?
     
  2. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    There's at least one organization, the Pink Pistols, that recognized this a while back. It's a gun rights gay organization.
     
  3. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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  4. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

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    A common error made by heterosexuals. Tell me: when did you make the 'lifestyle choice' of your sexuality?? I bet you can't find one gay person that will tell you they made a 'lifestyle choice' to be degraded, humiliated, persecuted and denied basic rights.

    Actually, as long as the 'guys' you 'own' are into that lifestyle, I don't care at all!
     
  5. Slappy McGee

    Slappy McGee Member

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    Good catch, and I expressed that point incorrectly (apologies). I did not mean to say that being gay was a 'lifestyle choice,' rather that choosing to "come out" and share your orientation with others is a difficult choice often subject to scorn, and the 'lifestyle choice' was choosing to be subject to that scorn. While I think it's a harder choice than owning a gun, gun owners are also degraded and humiliated, hence another similarity.

    On the topic of the Pink Pistols, I will check out their site. What I think would make headlines is if gun rights folks came out for gay rights. I think it would generate a lot of publicity, goodwill, and change the perception of gun owners in quite a few ardently anti-gun circles. It would also shatter the conventional definitions of liberal and conservative issues and make the dialogue on both issues more about basic freedoms rather than EBRs and Gay Pride parades.
     
  6. obmax1212

    obmax1212 Member

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    I get what you meant by lifestyle choice. I am gay and I own guns. I think the reason gays tend to cling to the anti-gun crowd is because the anti-gun crowd tends to be liberals, who by definition worship government. Worshiping government requires surrendering arms. As for pro-gun people being anti-gay, that might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country. I agree with you, anti-gun gays shouldn't be anti-gun, and anti-gay pro-gunners shouldn't ignore gays because they are gay.

    The way I see it, ALL minorities have even more reason to want to be pro-gun. Gays, blacks, Jews, etc. All of them are at particular risk of being screwed, and owning a gun (as we all know) is the best defense for them when the SHTF. My personal opinion growing up in Albany, NY is that most gays are anti-gun not because they are actually anti-gun, but because they associate pro-gun with anti-gay politics. By the way, I am and know several Republican/libertarian pro-gun gay...and they aren't butch lesbians either :p.
     
  7. Slappy McGee

    Slappy McGee Member

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    obmax1212,

    Thanks for your thoughts. I think you hit the crux of the problem. The pro-gay side associates the pro-gunners with the stereotype of the redneck, racist, gaybasher, and the pro-gun side associates gays with flaming, anti-family, big government Berkley-types.

    I was surprised to find the Pink Pistols don't have anything going on in Charlotte. I don't know that I can start a chapter but I'm going to contact them and see if I can help in some way.
     
  8. Arrogant Bastard

    Arrogant Bastard Member

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    I used to consider myself a liberal, though as I sat and reflected on issues more, I realised I had a LOT more in common with libertarians -- though I still have anti-corporate tendencies.
     
  9. FullEffect1911

    FullEffect1911 Member

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    i stumbled upon this post, well thought out and a good read... Thanks for sharing.
     
  10. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    Without a doubt the best gun rights conference I ever went to was one organized by David Rostcheck of the Pink Pistols. Something about being an activist for the GLBT community trains you to not take guff.

    He also wrote several fine pieces for kaba, with this being my favorite.
    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2519

    Civil rights are civil rights - there's a lot both groups might learn from one another.
     
  11. B.357

    B.357 Member

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    One difererce is gays like to push there thing into classrooms and other places and lie about the affects of their 'lifestyle'.We just want our GOD given freedoms.
     
  12. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

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    Wow. We made it a whole 10 posts before the ignorance hit the fan. The fact that only 10 literate people posted before we got ignorant is what scares a lot of thinking people away from our side.

    The most ignorant 10% seem to be the most vocal, too.
     
  13. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    So any dissention is ignorance? You ask to for us to "hear you out", but after that, you end the discussion.

    Okay.
     
  14. belus

    belus Member

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    I do most of my shooting with the Phoenix AZ Pink Pistols chapter. http://phoenixpinkpistols.org

    Last weekend we set up a booth at Pride with a rubber band shooting gallery, lots of literature, and free gun locks. Before this past weekend, we would count between 8 and 16 people at any one of our shoots. After pride we added almost 150 names to our mailing list and handed out about 8-dozen gun locks. Now we're worried about running out of lanes at the local range.

    A lot of interest came from people who had "inherited a gun 9 years ago, but never learned to shoot it." Or who were interested in getting their CCW, but who were intimidated by the stereotypical gun culture.

    I really appreciate this organization. I think we're helping 'conservatives' realize that homosexuals aren't trying to assault their values and that gay marriage is about two people who want to commit to a stable monogamous life-long relationship. And I think we're awakening 'liberals' to realize that self-defense is their personal responsibility and that carrying a gun for that purpose does not pose a civil liability.

    After our success at Pride maybe we'll feel up to getting tables at a gun show.

    edit: Here's a quick review of the brief the Pink Pistols filed in support of Heller
    http://phoenixpinkpistols.org/2008/02/27/heller-brief/
     
  15. 41magsnub

    41magsnub Member

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    Gays with guns are more than fine with me being a live and let live sort of person. I will say this about religions and all other life styles, as long as you don't try to impose your way of life on me or do so in a way that takes away from my freedoms you can do whatever floats your boat.

    If the pink pistols are on the same side of the 2nd Amendment as I am then super, we need all the help we can get.
     
  16. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

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    I didn't see any dissent. I saw three misspellings in one sentence. Further the sentiment expressed seemed to express the OP's opinion that homosexuality is some sort of sin or abomination and that homosexuals were liars infiltrating 'our' schools.

    Yep. That's ignorant.

    I don't ever recall asking you, or any one else, to "hear me out", but I am going to end my discussion about it with this post--but only because it isn't appropriate for The High Road. However, if you really want to discuss it with me, pm me and I'll meet you at APS.

    Okay?
     
  17. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    Agreed.
     
  18. 19-3Ben

    19-3Ben Member

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    With the exception of B.357, this is a very interesting and insightful post. Thanks for posting Slappy.

    B.357:
    What, and as a gun owner, you wouldn't love to have a teacher give a good plug for gun ownership in schools? or even better, to have "eddie the eagle" come into a school and teach kids about responsible gun ownership?
    Is your problem just that you don't like kids to learn point of views that disagree with yours? or do you not like it when kids learn about controversial issues?
     
  19. Wild Deuce

    Wild Deuce Member

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    shhhhh .... I hear a moderator at the door. :uhoh:
     
  20. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    The pro-gay community is already involved in support of 2A. Indeed, are we (pro-gun and pro-gay) not working together for the 2A cause?

    The only reason for the pro-gun community to "reach out" to the "pro-gay" community would be to use the 2A platform to legitimize homosexuality and this should in no way be considered.
     
  21. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

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    (C'mon Snake, you already promised yourself, and others, in this thread that you wouldn't do this....you KNOW this is going to lead to NOTHING productive--and will probably mean thread lock. Just let it go, let it go....aw damn here I go again....)

    So, my fine friend, would you care to enlighten me? Exactly what about homosexuality needs to be legitimized???

    Let me guess: You don't believe in evolution either. Eh?
     
  22. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    Dunno, but they sure keep trying.

    (Good guess. Evolution takes more faith than I can muster.)
     
  23. plexreticle

    plexreticle Member

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    People who think sexual preference is a lifestyle choice are living in the closet imo.
     
  24. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    Maybe that's another foundational issue, but it's not like what the OP proposed in the way of commonality between pro-gun and pro-gay -- or is it?
     
  25. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Member

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    Ok, so I lied: I don't care if this thread gets locked or I get banned, this is worth arguing about.
    So, if I understand you, what you're saying is: You can make no cognitive argument to back up your statements or your beliefs. Is that right? And you don't find this to be a text-book definition of ignorance?

    Look, I'm asking for your help. Explain it to me. Please
     
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