Guns and Gays: Similar core issue on different sides of the aisle?
- Thread starter Slappy McGee
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Ash
Member
"conservative people tend to be religious in this country."
Snake, it dropped way back in post #6 with this juicy little statement against those of us who are religious. That door swings both ways, and first blood was drawn before post # 10.
You want my support for your firearms rights? You have it. You want to live in a relationship? Fine, go ahead. You don't like one view-point? Fine, point it out. But, you seem to have no problem with a veiled Obama-like assumption about conservatives, guns, and religion.
Don't pontificate on one thing while ignoring another.
Ash
Snake, it dropped way back in post #6 with this juicy little statement against those of us who are religious. That door swings both ways, and first blood was drawn before post # 10.
You want my support for your firearms rights? You have it. You want to live in a relationship? Fine, go ahead. You don't like one view-point? Fine, point it out. But, you seem to have no problem with a veiled Obama-like assumption about conservatives, guns, and religion.
Don't pontificate on one thing while ignoring another.
Ash
VARifleman
Member
In my mind nothing needs to be legitimized, because it really isn't society's concern who (gender or number) a person sleeps with. I think we need to get out of the Victorian psychosis and just respect the choices that a person makes or doesn't make (I hold that some are gay, etc. by choice, but quite a lot aren't).
As for your comment about evolution...there really isn't anything topical about that, although there is no real disconnect between not believing the whole crazy spiel that is taught today and believing that people are right to have their privacy.
Hawk
Member
My opinion only but it seems this thread has, thus far, managed to negotiate the minefield rather well - at least it hasn't been locked yet.
Post 6, so far as I can see, is without negative connotation.
"...might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country."
The big difference is that Obama suggested that religion and guns were associated with bitterness over one's position while post 6 simply notes that many conservatives are religious. I see the negative connotation in Obama's statement but not in post 6.
Many conservatives being religious is not implausible based on demographics.
Many religions denounce homosexuality.
Hence some conservatives may have a negative view of gays.
Nothing negative about either conservatives or religion is needed to produce that surmise.
Many religions also extoll the virtue of tolerance. Hence, proposing activism that involves cooperation with gays may not violate one's religious views as much as would appear to be the case at first blush but I'm no expert in these matters.
Simply noting that someone may be religious doesn't imply anything other than that someone may be religous. Saying they're religious because their job was outsourced on the other hand carries a pantload of negative connotation.
schadenfreude
Member
First off.... I am pro gay rights so I won't say anything for or against because this isn't the place..... but,
I think, if gun owners could use the example of gay activism, to model our own fight against oppression then we could make some headway. Gun activist are far too quiet in my opinion. Be loud, be aggressive, be in their face and DEMAND our rights. Correct the stereotypes...... Get a damn parade...... I know far too many gun enthusiast who think their NRA membership means they're doing their part and the NRA will work to keep guns in our hands.
Just a thought
I think, if gun owners could use the example of gay activism, to model our own fight against oppression then we could make some headway. Gun activist are far too quiet in my opinion. Be loud, be aggressive, be in their face and DEMAND our rights. Correct the stereotypes...... Get a damn parade...... I know far too many gun enthusiast who think their NRA membership means they're doing their part and the NRA will work to keep guns in our hands.
Just a thought
Ash
Member
"As for pro-gun people being anti-gay, that might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country...The way I see it, ALL minorities have even more reason to want to be pro-gun. Gays, blacks, Jews, etc. All of them are at particular risk of being screwed..."
Perhaps I should have left the whole statement up. Being religious, of course, makes you homophobic and a gay-basher who is more likely to screw the gay fellow.
Ash
Perhaps I should have left the whole statement up. Being religious, of course, makes you homophobic and a gay-basher who is more likely to screw the gay fellow.
Ash
zxcvbob
Member
Emo?
schadenfreude
Member
I also feel that if I can respect gay rights then I can also respect religion but they always go to the (gays try to push their lifestyle on us) which is ridiculous. I have never had a gay person come to my house and knock on my door through 2 no soliciting signs (one specifically says no religious solicitation) and try to peddle their god to me. Whereas we have 4 religious salesmen per week.
Heavy Metal Hero
Member
This thread should be locked, but...
Very true. I have nothing against religion, everyone should be able to practice how they want. At the same time, however, they should allow other people to practice what they want to.
Very true. I have nothing against religion, everyone should be able to practice how they want. At the same time, however, they should allow other people to practice what they want to.
inherentical
Member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2007
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That's the funny thing. No gays have ever knocked on my door at 7 am on a Saturday morning looking to convert me from my path of righteousness. I've had plenty of religious door-knockers come try to convert me from my path of wickedness, though. Also, I think that gays and guns have a great deal in common. Say someone is uncomfortable with me open carrying. How can I sit and say that it's ok for me to open carry, but two guys shouldn't make out in public because it makes me uncomfortable? There will always be someone who doesn't agree with your actions, regardless of what they are. Everyone should be free to practice their intrinsic rights however they please. Just don't forget that your rights end where mine begin.
At least in an ideal world.
Ash
Member
"That's the funny thing. No gays have ever knocked on my door at 7 am on a Saturday morning looking to convert me from my path of righteousness."
Perhaps not you, but I have been hit on by gay men even after I established my orientation (before I got married, though there are times after being married it happens - with said wedding band on hand). That is the same thing. While I might be quite the attractive guy (the women seem to think so), I am very clearly not gay. So, I HAVE had it happen to me on several occasions. And while some might have thought it amusing - alas my response was probably anti-climactic - it is no different and certainly very off-putting and certainly hypocritical.
Of course, all that said, I do think gays should be on board as fellow gun enthusiasts. I have worked with several in very positive ways and in no way thing gays should suffer public oppression. A gay man has just as much right to self-defense as anyone else.
Ash
Perhaps not you, but I have been hit on by gay men even after I established my orientation (before I got married, though there are times after being married it happens - with said wedding band on hand). That is the same thing. While I might be quite the attractive guy (the women seem to think so), I am very clearly not gay. So, I HAVE had it happen to me on several occasions. And while some might have thought it amusing - alas my response was probably anti-climactic - it is no different and certainly very off-putting and certainly hypocritical.
Of course, all that said, I do think gays should be on board as fellow gun enthusiasts. I have worked with several in very positive ways and in no way thing gays should suffer public oppression. A gay man has just as much right to self-defense as anyone else.
Ash
And I was foolish enough to think that there was some hope for this thread.:banghead:
Let's be clear about a couple of things.
THR doesn't allow bashing of members or groups.
Pink Pistols has been around a while and has established itself as an effective pro RKBA organization that is very effective at destroying the stereotypes antis toss around about gun owners and RKBA advocates.
They don't need our help. WE need theirs.
Good night all.
Let's be clear about a couple of things.
THR doesn't allow bashing of members or groups.
Pink Pistols has been around a while and has established itself as an effective pro RKBA organization that is very effective at destroying the stereotypes antis toss around about gun owners and RKBA advocates.
They don't need our help. WE need theirs.
Good night all.
jlpskydive
Member
One thing I have found about my gunnie friends, is that they don't care if you own a gun or not they just want their right to.
One thing I have found about my gay friends, is they don't care if you're gay or not they just want their right to be.
One thing that I have learned about both is, the groups are not mutally exclusive.
YMMV
One thing I have found about my gay friends, is they don't care if you're gay or not they just want their right to be.
One thing that I have learned about both is, the groups are not mutally exclusive.
YMMV
Slappy McGee
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2007
- Messages
- 61
Where I think the zinger in this argument lies is the basic right/freedom issue. There is a stereotype (obviously unjustified) in many anti-gun circles that gun owners are neanderthals hiding in their basement waiting for WWIII (and of course mindlessly voting republican because they are too stupid to do anything else).
If gunners came out and said not only are members of the gay community in our midst, but there are also people who are not necessarily pro-gay, but see gay rights as a fundamental issue of freedom to be left to the discretion of adults (like gun ownership). Therefore gunners are willing to stand together with the gay rights crowd and support their cause as it's a matter of freedom, not "it's for the children/it makes me uncomfortable/it's scary/I don't like it/etc." I think it's powerful to say your willing to put aside your personal feelings for the larger issue of personal freedoms, on either side. Thus the argument is about freedom (the way we gunners are always trying to couch it) rather than which part of the rifle makes it more evil.
Could you imagine flipping to CNN and seeing a couple folks in suits, a couple more, shall we say, more flamboyant folks and some dudes that look like Larry the Cable Guy decked out in real-tree saying we understand and support each other on the basic issues of freedom that allow gay rights and gun rights, despite discomfort or lack of interest in each other's lifestyle? You'd hear a simultaneous "thunk" across the country and that would be the jaws of the collectivist crowd hitting the floor.
If gunners came out and said not only are members of the gay community in our midst, but there are also people who are not necessarily pro-gay, but see gay rights as a fundamental issue of freedom to be left to the discretion of adults (like gun ownership). Therefore gunners are willing to stand together with the gay rights crowd and support their cause as it's a matter of freedom, not "it's for the children/it makes me uncomfortable/it's scary/I don't like it/etc." I think it's powerful to say your willing to put aside your personal feelings for the larger issue of personal freedoms, on either side. Thus the argument is about freedom (the way we gunners are always trying to couch it) rather than which part of the rifle makes it more evil.
Could you imagine flipping to CNN and seeing a couple folks in suits, a couple more, shall we say, more flamboyant folks and some dudes that look like Larry the Cable Guy decked out in real-tree saying we understand and support each other on the basic issues of freedom that allow gay rights and gun rights, despite discomfort or lack of interest in each other's lifestyle? You'd hear a simultaneous "thunk" across the country and that would be the jaws of the collectivist crowd hitting the floor.
VARifleman
Member
Excuse me? Just because some people misuse religion, and pick and chose to justify their prejudice, doesn't mean that religion causes homophobia.
Ash, you seem to be holding gays to a double standard.
You say you are
a) straight
and b) married
You also say that
c) gays hit on you
and d) women find you attractive (and make it obvious)
Do you get offended when women hit on you after you've "established" that you're married? How are you "establishing" that you're straight? Do you really "establish" either of these things? I would think that as a mature adult, rebuking advances is a fairly easy process. Thus, either I'm missing something here, or you are actually offended by the fact that gays are attracted to you, and not the fact that they make advances that seem unsolicited.
PS, I may be unfair here in assuming that the women don't offend you; you didn't HAVE to mention it, since it wasn't necessarily germane, if that were the case. The feel I got was that it was ok for women to fawn, but not men. (Which would make sense if you are unmarried, but not if you are, as your marital and sexual statuses are, respectively, obstacles)
My statement in no way was an assault on religious people or their veiws. It is a FACT that conservatives in this country tend to be religious. Period. Most people in this country tend to be religious. That too is a fact. I don't understand how that fails to highlight the fact that gays tend not to trust pro-gun organizations because they (the gays) associate them with religious views that they perceive as a negative force in their lives. This isn't to say that religion in fact is anti-gay, or that when it is it is violently so.
Again, that isn't a personal attack. I wasn't the one bringing up evolution, the "gay agenda", and all the rest. That was two other posters. In the future, don't use my posts to justify your involvement in an argument that belongs on a different forum.
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LBGT and Guns.
Being gay or being a gun owner is not a lifestyle choice, but flaunting your choices into people's faces is.
Walking down the street with loaded sidearms, a loaded semi on your back and a shirt saying, patience my *ss, I'm going to kill someone is perfectly within our rights, but it is something that might make some people uneasy if you took a stroll thorugh the local mall on a busy Sat afternoon.
The LBGT community effectively does this when some participants engage in lewd behavior at the "gay pride parades".
People are protective of their children and are concerned about the influence that school teachers will have on "their children".
The reality is many people still believe being LBGT is a lifestyle choice and while they may tolerate what consenting adults do, it is a lifestyle few parents want their children to adopt.
Sceince will probably show in the next few years that our gender and sexual orientation are predisposed biologically,
Of course, when Magellan circled the globe, it still took a few generations to pass before people started to accept that the world was round.
Many people are uncomfortable with the gun culture because they don't understand the core of why we have guns in America.
Most gun owners don't understand it either, especially the "Sporting guys".
The core reason why we have a constitutional right to guns is so that if our government gets out of control, that we will exercise our moral duty to replace our out of control government.
Members of the LBGT community must make a shift on the gun issue and the reasons are numerous.
Being anti gun for any minority group is being suicidal.
Right now our country is going the wrong way on many fronts, especially economics.
Economically our country is in a similar situation that Germany was in the 20's.
Our money is crashing.
Germany was economically crushed by the treaty of Versailles, we are being crushed by Social Security, Medicare, maintaining massive overseas military spending, a destroyed manufacturing base and massive trade deficits.
When the German ecomony crashed, Germans panicked, and they voted for a savior, his name was Adolf. Adolf restored order, eliminated freedom and he got rid of many people.
He rose to power because he told the Germans that it was not their fault, rather it was the fault of the Jews.
When America crashes, there will be those who will say it is God's Wrath.
They will point fingers, they will blame groups for the decline of America.
A religious zealot would easily point to the LBGT community and say that tolerance of the LBGT community is the reason America is falling.
People don't like to own up to creating their own problems. They blame others.
The Victim mindset allows you to avoid responsiblity for your actions and it is rampant across the country. It is a social cancer that many so called leaders promote because they acquire power from it.
Ameircans will give up freedom for security, they did it before and they will do it again.
Americans will sacrifice segments of the population for so called national security concerns, they did it before and they will do it again.
Logically Gays should be pro gun, but people's actions are controlled by their emotions.
Logically, Gun rights activists should support gay rights, but their emotions won't let them do it.
Nuff said.
Nicki
Being gay or being a gun owner is not a lifestyle choice, but flaunting your choices into people's faces is.
Walking down the street with loaded sidearms, a loaded semi on your back and a shirt saying, patience my *ss, I'm going to kill someone is perfectly within our rights, but it is something that might make some people uneasy if you took a stroll thorugh the local mall on a busy Sat afternoon.
The LBGT community effectively does this when some participants engage in lewd behavior at the "gay pride parades".
People are protective of their children and are concerned about the influence that school teachers will have on "their children".
The reality is many people still believe being LBGT is a lifestyle choice and while they may tolerate what consenting adults do, it is a lifestyle few parents want their children to adopt.
Sceince will probably show in the next few years that our gender and sexual orientation are predisposed biologically,
Of course, when Magellan circled the globe, it still took a few generations to pass before people started to accept that the world was round.
Many people are uncomfortable with the gun culture because they don't understand the core of why we have guns in America.
Most gun owners don't understand it either, especially the "Sporting guys".
The core reason why we have a constitutional right to guns is so that if our government gets out of control, that we will exercise our moral duty to replace our out of control government.
Members of the LBGT community must make a shift on the gun issue and the reasons are numerous.
Being anti gun for any minority group is being suicidal.
Right now our country is going the wrong way on many fronts, especially economics.
Economically our country is in a similar situation that Germany was in the 20's.
Our money is crashing.
Germany was economically crushed by the treaty of Versailles, we are being crushed by Social Security, Medicare, maintaining massive overseas military spending, a destroyed manufacturing base and massive trade deficits.
When the German ecomony crashed, Germans panicked, and they voted for a savior, his name was Adolf. Adolf restored order, eliminated freedom and he got rid of many people.
He rose to power because he told the Germans that it was not their fault, rather it was the fault of the Jews.
When America crashes, there will be those who will say it is God's Wrath.
They will point fingers, they will blame groups for the decline of America.
A religious zealot would easily point to the LBGT community and say that tolerance of the LBGT community is the reason America is falling.
People don't like to own up to creating their own problems. They blame others.
The Victim mindset allows you to avoid responsiblity for your actions and it is rampant across the country. It is a social cancer that many so called leaders promote because they acquire power from it.
Ameircans will give up freedom for security, they did it before and they will do it again.
Americans will sacrifice segments of the population for so called national security concerns, they did it before and they will do it again.
Logically Gays should be pro gun, but people's actions are controlled by their emotions.
Logically, Gun rights activists should support gay rights, but their emotions won't let them do it.
Nuff said.
Nicki
Ooops. Sorry for the delayed detonation.
Ker-klunk
Blasted jet lag.
Ker-klunk
Blasted jet lag.
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