Gunshop Advice: Levers a big no-no.

[KINGMAX]

I have the best of both worlds. I shoot a REMINGTON 700 ADL in .270 for a primary deer rifle from tree stands and towers. If I am doing a dog hunt or two man stalking, I use an old Winchester lever action model 94 in 30.30. I use 150 gr. rounds in both. It has worked for me so far.

 

[MechAg94]

You ought to do a search for the threads about the funniest or stupidest things heard at gun shops. They are pretty entertaining.

Bolt actions have their place. Lever guns have their place also. For a handy rifle that is good for 200 yards or less, lever guns are great. They are also handy for home defense. My .357 mag Rossi 92 is a great rifle and I can hit target just fine at 100 yards. There are lots of choices in more powerful ammo. Most commons choices are different from bolt guns though. Most lever guns I see tend toward heavier bullets and slower velocities.

 

[Tomcat47]

A .243 over a .30-.30 Lever for a brush gun.....potential black bear! I know where there is a gun shop with a salesman that does not know which end the bullet comes out of!

And I concur..most these posts have confirmed a lever in Marlin and others has plenty of strength! Have never seen the bolt blown out of a Marlin.

And looking upwards of pressure and power the .450, .45-70, and the .444 is some serious lead thrown down range with a LOT of energy!

 

[plexreticle]

I've found most gun shop employees are firearm experts like car salesmen are automobile experts.

 

[RubenZ]

Exactly. Most gun shop employees are basically like any other retail employee. Poorly trained in the items they sell.

 

[Alphazulu6]

I have to agree with the above post. Its so sad but very true. The people standing on side of the counter with you 90% of the time know more than those behind it.
I can 100% in all good concious tell you that if you want THE all round rifle go take a peek at a Browning or Remington 30-06. A good 30-30 lever action is nice and simple and Bushmaster 45-70 is pretty neat. All the newer ones from the big weapons brands are for the most part solid. And funny that its not as though your looking at the african safari calibers in that action as no the lever action could not withstand those pressures economically...so I have no idea what the clerk would be talking about.
But a new bolt action 700 or A-bolt in a 30-06 will serve you better than any other firearm type off the shelf as they are pretty much fool-proof and the 30-06 caliber has a ballistic coefficient superior to that of a 30-30 or even the fabled 45-70. Good luck and happy hunting!

I have to add this one last remark about black bear and 30-30s.
#1 I think they are majestic animals and do not feel they should be shot unless absolutely 100% necessary aka bear mace didnt work.
#2 If I were to NEED to shoot one my mind always goes back to the Montana Fish and Game video showing the "drugged" bear coming to and knocking over the cage and going after one of the wardens. . The film shows that bear taking all seven rounds of the 30-30 lever action before it went down to another rifle while mauling a warden. Safely and humanely a 30-06 is probably the smallest caliber for a dangerous animal such as bear or moose as with this rare encounter, shot placement is very rarely in your favor.

 

[TimboKhan]

Having not listened to the conversation, I am hesitant to say that he was trying to upsell you, simply because he did give you accurate advice, at least in regards to the strength issue. That said, he is wrong. A .30-30 is plenty for black bear, and a lever action is quite a bit faster and handy in the bush. If your looking for a gun to actively hunt black bear, then no, I probably wouldn't say a .30-30. I don't think I would recommend a .243 either, but I would recommend a good bolt gun owing to the general superiority in terms of accuracy.

On this note, keep in mind that accuracy has become something of a nebulous topic. Magazines and gun forums tend to call anything that isn't sub-MOA "inaccurate", even if only subconciously. Craig Boddington wrote an article a couple of years back in which he said that a rifle that was just MOA was "pedestrian". His point was valid, as the rifles of today generally are extraordinarily accurate as compared to those of even 20 years ago, but I just disagree that MOA is all that important for the average shooter. For me, if I can shoot consistently into a max of 4 inches at 200 yards, I am perfectly satisfied with that rifle. I am more concerned about consistent, functional accuracy than I am with gilt-edge accuracy, although there is certainly nothing wrong with gilt-edge accuracy.

 

[roscoe]

You have received good advice here. I personally think the 30-30 levergun is one of the most versatile and useful rifles there is.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think he's right about it as far as strength is concerned.

Nope. The Savage 99, Winchester 86, Winchester 95, modern Puma M92, Marlin 95, and a number of other levers are as strong as a bolt action. The Puma, with some beefing up of components, chambers the .454 Casull--a cartridge with as high a pressure as any rifle round. The bolt action's big advantage is not strength but ease of manufacture. They are also able to stabilize the cartridge head better, though this isn't going to matter for hunting purposes.

The Winchester 94 isn't as strong as some others, but it is more than strong enough to chamber the .30-30.

 

[rangerruck]

a 3030 is good for most anything, and a lever in 35 remington, will take down everything bigger than that. that dude does not know what he is talking about.
a 243 is good up to deer , and that is about it.

 

[AStone]

BG, you're getting good advice here on the strength and reliability of levers.

Levers have been around for a very long time.
If they weren't reliable and strong,
the market would have spoken.

For more on lever guns,
and those of us who love them,
come here (.30-30) and here (.45-70).

(Note: the former thread currently has the highest number of views in Rifle Country: 17,641.
That should tell you something about the number of people who value levers in .30-30,
and trust their strength and reliability.)

Nem

 

[CajunBass]

The main reason I seldom ask for advice in a gunstore is the people on the other side of the counter usually don't know as much as I do, which isn't much. There are exceptions, and those exceptions are treasured sources of information.

 

[Coronach]

The gun store guy doesn't exactly know what he is talking about.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I don't know what that guy was talking about

That's ok, George. Neither did he.

Mike

 

[24kshooter]

Apples and Oranges information was provided to you - The gun shop guy was basically correct on 80% of the information - however he appears to have not understood your stated needs and did not give you the whole story. The lever action rifles are designed for specific functions and they work well within this framework. For protection in the woods a lever action in a 30 -30 or preferably a heavier caliber would be a good recommendation. The lever ation is easy to carry, quick on target and simple to operate - in any case a bolt action 243 would not be the best choice. Check out the Marlin 336's for options.

 

[svtruth]

I have a lever gun

in .44 mag. Yes, after 100 yds the trajectory is a little droopy, but bears over 100 yds away are less of a concern than ones at 20 yds.
The magazine holds 11 rounds, if 11 rounds of 240 grain bullets at 1600 fps don't stop it you are dealing with the supernatural.
IIRC the prez of Hammerhead ammo took all of the African dangerous game with a .45-70.
Good luck.

 

[kmrcstintn]

you'll do fine with a lever action rifle; .30-30 is a classic, but Marlin puts out more potent chamberings; if you want to use point bullets, then lean toward a Browning BLR, but be prepared to pay out the wazoo for one (1.5 - 2 times the cost of a Marlin...depending upon fit and finish);

I just got baboozled myself into a purchase that I do not want...walking into the shop, I wanted a slightly used pump action Remington 7600 in .30-06 which offers followup shots like a lever, but seems simpler to me since I use a pump action Remington 870...long story short is I left the store with a great and nice Tikka T3 in .300 Win Mag (I have a Tikka in .223 and I love the action, but the .300 Win Mag chambering is way too much rifle for my needs);

now I'm torn...keep it and 'try' to overcome a major flinching problem and a repeated sore shoulder or trade it and go with my 'gut' feeling; my overall suggestion is that you follow your 'gut' intention and buck the advice no matter how good it sounds...if you want a lever, get a lever...research your calibers and select according to your intended needs...not what Salesperson X says about Rifle Y in Caliber Z...you have to live with your decision, not the salesperson

 

[Wedge]

The guy was not only trying to sell you a gun but wanted your business for ammo as well. .243 isn't cheap!!!

Find a new shop

 

[Rexster]

I recommend .243 for Koala bears.

 

[Spinner]

Sometimes, the advice you get from a salesman is more about him shifting stock than what really suits your needs.

The best way to avoid getting fitted up with something you don't need is to have enough information to know what you think you'll need and to be able to spot a line when its thrown at you. Asking here at THR is one way to get that information.

On the other hand, the saleman may have a point in that lever actions aren't the only solution and although many lever actions have been sold over the years, I'm betting that the sales of bolt guns outnumber the sales of lever guns these days. Many bolt guns can be operated very quickly for follow-up shots by shooters who are experienced enough with their guns and shooting from a prone position can be a little problematic with a levergun. Tube mag lever actions are pretty much limited to flat-nose projectiles (although the Leverevolution ammo sounds like its taking off).

If you're at all curious about a lever action 30-30 and think that it'd be suitable for want you want, there are so many about and they're so cheap that you could afford to take a gamble and buy a good used example and try it for yourself .... you can always sell it off later if it doesn't light your dials.

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