Hand replacement question / S&W M&P 38 Special (1948)

[whatnickname]

I purchased an old M&P that was out of time. Fitted an oversized Power Custom hand. Width of the hand is now .004” wider than the original hand. Had to stone the nose of the hand as it was a little too long and bound up on the ratchet lugs. Indexed just fine on an empty cylinder however. Put spent cases in the chambers and I had one lug on the ratchet that wanted to bind the hand up to the point that it kept the trigger from returning forward. At that point I stoned a small radius on the top front left (frame side) corner of the hand just like Power Custom recommends. Problem solved, or so I thought. So here’s the question...probably moot but I’m gonna ask anyway. Put spent cases in the chambers and it indexes just fine, even if you hold the cylinder to put some resistance on it. Put resized cases in the chambers and it indexes, both double and single action, just fine, even when you put resistance on the cylinder. However one chamber doesn’t lock up until the last second when you put some resistance on the cylinder. Cock the hammer on empty chambers, with resistance on the cylinder, and that one chamber lacks about .001” from rotating far enough to let the cylinder stop engage the notch of the cylinder. All other five chambers lock up well before the hammer drops either double or single action. Leave well enough alone or start over again and stone the one lug that wanted to bind the cylinder up?

 

[LaneP]

I would leave alone so long as all chambers fire reliably.

I have a model 60 that never timed properly when fired DA. The old style lock of S&W lock up later than the newer models do, probably why they always used to say, "don't stage the trigger" in the manuals. On my M60, 2 out of the 5 chambers would predictably fail to fire due to such extreme late timing when shooting using the trigger, causing light, off-center hits.

I didn't discover this until after the one year service warranty expired because all I was doing was going to the range and hammer cocking it, and it worked fine that way, the problem is only when trigger cocking it. Sent it back to S&W and they charged me $75 and returned it doing the same thing. I tossed it in my safe and it sat there for years (bought it new in the early 90s).

This past summer I got it back out and really took a close look at what was going on. No one I can find makes an oversize hand for the J frame, only the bigger ones, so I gave that route up. I took the hammer out so I could study what the hand is doing as it lifts the cylinder upward.

I took the hand and very carefully gave the top of it a slight bend so it is biased toward the cylinder pin, in the direction of rotation. That was what it took. For the first time in 28 years I can fire all 5 using the trigger, cylinder load after another.

But it still wants to lock up at the last second on those two chambers, but at least now they do lock before the hammer starts to fall and the pistol is 100%.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

I assume you're cocking the hammer v-e-r-r-y slowly as you test timing. Does the affected charge hole lock up when the gun is handled as you would under normal use? If so (and that's the way I'd bet), go ahead and shoot it as is. As long as the bullet hits with the other 5 and there's no smears of lead on the forcing cone, you're good to go.

 

[boom boom]

I purchased an old M&P that was out of time. Fitted an oversized Power Custom hand. Width of the hand is now .004” wider than the original hand. Had to stone the nose of the hand as it was a little too long and bound up on the ratchet lugs. Indexed just fine on an empty cylinder however. Put spent cases in the chambers and I had one lug on the ratchet that wanted to bind the hand up to the point that it kept the trigger from returning forward. At that point I stoned a small radius on the top front left (frame side) corner of the hand just like Power Custom recommends. Problem solved, or so I thought. So here’s the question...probably moot but I’m gonna ask anyway. Put spent cases in the chambers and it indexes just fine, even if you hold the cylinder to put some resistance on it. Put resized cases in the chambers and it indexes, both double and single action, just fine, even when you put resistance on the cylinder. However one chamber doesn’t lock up until the last second when you put some resistance on the cylinder. Cock the hammer on empty chambers, with resistance on the cylinder, and that one chamber lacks about .001” from rotating far enough to let the cylinder stop engage the notch of the cylinder. All other five chambers lock up well before the hammer drops either double or single action. Leave well enough alone or start over again and stone the one lug that wanted to bind the cylinder up?

Maybe call up the folks at PowerCustom and ask them for advice.

Given the 1948 date, you could have a long action or short action which might also have something to do with it as LaneP mentioned. Here is a S&W forum on telling the difference by models
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...846-short-vs-long-action-how-do-you-tell.html

 

[whatnickname]

I assume you're cocking the hammer v-e-r-r-y slowly as you test timing. Does the affected charge hole lock up when the gun is handled as you would under normal use? If so (and that's the way I'd bet), go ahead and shoot it as is. As long as the bullet hits with the other 5 and there's no smears of lead on the forcing cone, you're good to go.

I am cocking the hammer very slowly. Only when I put resistance on the cylinder with all chambers empty will that one chamber fail to lock up and then only very slightly...about .001” from engaging the cylinder stop with the notch in the cylinder. Cock it normally on empty chambers...no problems. Double action on empty chambers, no problem. Put resized brass in all chambers. Slow or fast cocking, resistance on the cylinder or not, single action or double action...all without any problems.

Just got done on the range with it a few minutes ago. Sub 2” groups at 25 yards. All primers are hit dead center...single or double action. No smearing of lead at the forcing cone. No spitting lead particles. Think I’ll leave well enough alone. No observable issues with normal use and good accuracy...hits point of aim at 25 yards with a variety of 158 grain bullets loaded to 850 fps. Just wanted it to be perfect and I know that one chamber is there. Lots of use on a revolver that’s older than I am. Just enough slop in the extractor / ratchet to cause the problem. Don’t think I could have fit the hand any better considering all the variables associated with the lugs on the extractor / ratchet.

 

[BBBBill]

The hand affects the lock up timing of all chambers while the individual ratchet pads affect only the associated chamber. Sounds like one ratchet pad is slightly undersized on its hand engagement face. Brownell's used to sell a tool for swaging the pads, but I don't think that they still carry that item as I believe that the smith that made it, Jack Guttridge, has passed on. If it bothers you bad enough and you can correctly identify the specific ratchet pad at fault you can still swage it without the tool. You will need a solid steel very flat block tall enough to accept the full length of the extractor stem with a central hole sized for the extractor stem, and a swaging punch with a small (about 3/16") ground and polished very flat and smooth on the face. A hole drilled and threaded 1/4"x20 for a small hold down clamp to lock down the ratchet would be nice, but not totally necessary. The idea is to punch straight down on the face of the ratchet pad, moving metal outward. A little goes a long way. If you go a little too far the excess can be easily filed away with a narrow safe side file. Ensure that you maintain the correct angle on the side when you file it. This does not affect end shake or headspace.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

All good advice!

I would add make sure the bolt and its engagement lugs in the cylider are dirt, rust, and burr free. I have seen this cause late bolt engagement.

 

[whatnickname]

The hand affects the lock up timing of all chambers while the individual ratchet pads affect only the associated chamber. Sounds like one ratchet pad is slightly undersized on its hand engagement face. Brownell's used to sell a tool for swaging the pads, but I don't think that they still carry that item as I believe that the smith that made it, Jack Guttridge, has passed on. If it bothers you bad enough and you can correctly identify the specific ratchet pad at fault you can still swage it without the tool. You will need a solid steel very flat block tall enough to accept the full length of the extractor stem with a central hole sized for the extractor stem, and a swaging punch with a small (about 3/16") ground and polished very flat and smooth on the face. A hole drilled and threaded 1/4"x20 for a small hold down clamp to lock down the ratchet would be nice, but not totally necessary. The idea is to punch straight down on the face of the ratchet pad, moving metal outward. A little goes a long way. If you go a little too far the excess can be easily filed away with a narrow safe side file. Ensure that you maintain the correct angle on the side when you file it. This does not affect end shake or headspace.

Thanks Bill. If it gets to bothering me too much, i’ll do just that. It shoots so darn well I think I’m just gonna let it alone. The old five screw Smiths cock like they were riding on ball bearings. A pretty far cry from the stuff coming out of Smith & Wesson today. I will look for one of those tools. If there were a Santa Clause, I would just get a new extractor and be done with it...fat chance. Some of the used parts I’ve gotten from Numrich were in worse shape than the part I was trying to replace.

 

[BBBBill]

Some of the used parts I’ve gotten from Numrich were in worse shape than the part I was trying to replace.

I just went through that with them... TWICE on the same part! I was retrofitting a left hand Remmy 700 with the old style safety. It was a transition model that still had the cut in the bolt for the safety arm and the clearance cut in the receiver. Newer ones do not have that AFAIK. Owner is my neighbor's son who complained about the bold getting easily knocked open when slung over the shoulder and walking through woods or rough terrain. His dad is a lefty, too, but his Remmy was an older one where the safety locked the bolt. The first and second ones they sent both had improperly bent actuating levers. I finally got a good one. And these were all new old stock parts.

 

[boom boom]

@BBBBill
Thanks so much for this primer. I like these sorts of tips that you posted because you never know what you will be up against when dealing with old revolvers.