Hard cast lead in old black powder revolvers?

Status
Not open for further replies.

applefish123

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
21
Does anyone have experience with shooting hard cast lead (brinnell 16 or higher) old blackpowder-era top break revolvers?
I'm thinking old guns like S&W and Harrington Richardson top breaks designed to shoot black powder cartridges.

Will this wear out the rifling faster, and if so is it better to stick with cowboy action soft cast lead? (brinnell 8-12)
 
At the low pressures you will be shooting those guns at, hard cast bullets won't seal in the bore. "leading" Hard cast bullets may also build more pressure than the gun was designed to handle when that bullet hits the barrel. The iron those old cylinders and barrels were made out of didn't have the ability to flex like modern steel does.
If you really like the gun I would stick with soft lead bullets like the Cowboy Action Bullets that MBc sells. They are 12 brnl.
I know they have a long waiting period but it's better than damaging an old piece of history.
 
Years ago a friend and I went to the range, I had a Lyman branded New Model Army and he was shooting a repro Rogers & Spencer. We were using Pyrodex P and I had brought along some tin alloyed cast RB's. After the first cylinder from each, we reloaded for the next. I noticed my revolver was out of time and was also misfiring.

I stopped shooting and took a close look at my NMA. The frame had stretched out, giving me a good 1/8" b/c gap (not kidding) and right after noticing that I looked at my friends Rogers & Spencer and his barrel forcing cone had a large crack in it.

It seemed to me those soft steel revolvers just couldn't withstand the stress of the harder alloy, especially using Pyrodex, which I had used with soft bullets many times before with no problems. From that day forward I've never allowed anything but dead soft lead alloys in BP guns. My advice would be very cautious if you use anything other, particularly if you have a soft steel gun you're shooting them out of.
 
On some guns, trying to ram a hard lead ball or bullet into the chamber while the cylinder is in the gun can bend the loading lever. Don’t ask how I know. If you plan to use projectiles made of anything but pure soft lead please take the cylinder out of the frame and use a separate press.
 
Yeah, outsmarted myself that way with a Ruger Old Army and some cast wheelweight roundballs. They simply would not seat.
For the op, let discretion be the better part of valor, and take it easy on the old crocks. You won't wear out the rifling (!), but they just aren't very strong. Original ammo will mark with a thumbnail.
Moon
 
Personally, I would go with softer. I have zero experience with top breaks and a little with BP revolvers like 1858’s and 1860’s, but why create a problem that you don’t have now trying to do something that the gun wasn’t intended for?
 
Does anyone have experience with shooting hard cast lead (brinnell 16 or higher) old blackpowder-era top break revolvers?
I'm thinking old guns like S&W and Harrington Richardson top breaks designed to shoot black powder cartridges.

Will this wear out the rifling faster, and if so is it better to stick with cowboy action soft cast lead? (brinnell 8-12)
---
I reload for older top-breaks and only use MBC soft lead sized for the larger bore diameters of my guns. For my US Revolver (I-J) .38S&W I use Goex Olde Eynsford Black Powder FFg with a card wad over and the MBC 145gr. at .361". MBC sells .361" (.38S&W) and .313" (.32S&W) bullets, BHN12, specifically for older designs like top-break revolvers. Out of stock now but, they will be back and its worth waiting for.
 
Gil Sengal of Handloader Magazine made the point that older guns sometimes had the same size lands and grooves in the barrel and the soft(wrong) HARD lead bullets could strain and split the barrel because the lands would try to displace a large amount of lead. New guns with narrower lands were better for hard cast bullets. And yes all I would use in an old gun is dead soft lead bullets.

I corrected what I wrote but left my mistake for y'all to see.
 
Last edited:
Howdy

Guys, the OP was asking about shooting old Top Breaks, not Cap & Ball.

Most of the easily available Cowboy ammo is not generally loaded with soft bullets. I have no idea what the Brinnel hardness is, but generally speaking if I can dig my thumbnail into a bullet, I consider it to be relatively soft. I just tried digging my thumbnail into the bullets of some commercial 45 Colt cowboy loads and I barely scratched the bullet. I would say they are just regular hard cast bullets, nothing soft about them. Just tried to dig my thumb nail into some commercial Cowboy 32-20 ammo from HSM. Same story, could barely scratch the bullets. Most definitely not soft lead bullets. I just checked the Missouri Bullet Company (mbc) website, and yes they do say their bullets are soft lead, and they even have the formulas posted. But most of the easily available, off the shelf 'cowboy' ammo does not use soft bullets in my experience.

I shoot large frame Smith and Wesson antique Top Breaks all the time. Mostly chambered for 44 Russian. I have a couple of antique Schofields, but for some reason it is the New Model Number Threes that get shot most often.

pnIVU3B0j.jpg



I used to cast my own bullets for them, and they were dead soft pure lead. I don't cast anymore because the lead content in my blood is too high, so I buy all my Big Lube bullets from a commercial caster. I do not know exactly what the content is of his bullets, but they are very soft.

By the way, I NEVER shoot cartridges loaded with modern Smokeless powder in these old revolvers (the one on the left left the factory in 1896, the one on the right in 1882).

The iron those old cylinders and barrels were made out of didn't have the ability to flex like modern steel does.

The iron used in cylinders and frames of 19th Century revolvers was not the same as cast iron or pig iron, such as cast iron frying pans are made from. The iron used, particularly for the frames and cylinders of the very early Colt Single Action Army Revolvers was what we would call today high grade Malleable Iron. In fact, the reason the old Colts had Malleable Iron frames was to retain the ductility of the material. That is why they were Case Hardened, to retain the ductility of the iron, but to form a thin layer of harder carbon enriched iron on the surface for wear resistance. Of course the iron frames, and particularly the iron cylinders were not as strong as later steel versions, but they did have some ductility to them. I do know the First Model Schofields had iron frames, but I suspect the cylinders were made from steel. The Second Model Schofields had steel frames and cylinders. Again, no where near the tensile strength of modern steels, but they were steel.

Gil Sengal of Handloader Magazine made the point that older guns sometimes had the same size lands and grooves in the barrel and the soft lead bullets could strain and split the barrel because the lands would try to displace a large amount of lead. New guns with narrower lands were better for hard cast bullets. And yes all I would use in an old gun is dead soft lead bullets.

Interesting. I have peered down the bore of lots and lots of modern S&W and Colt revolvers, and most of them have lands and grooves of about the same width, no different than my antique Top Breaks. Anyway, perhaps that is a typo, but it makes more sense to me that harder bullets would cause more problems trying to resize themselves to lands and grooves of equal width rather than soft bullets.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Nothing but soft lead and Black Powder in my antique Top Breaks.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. I have peered down the bore of lots and lots of modern S&W and Colt revolvers, and most of them have lands and grooves of about the same width, no different than my antique Top Breaks. Anyway, perhaps that is a typo, but it makes more sense to me that harder bullets would cause more problems trying to resize themselves to lands and grooves of equal width rather than soft bullets.

You got it right. And thats what Gil Sengal was saying that the equal lands and grooves displace more lead than the newer rifling with narrower lands that displace a smaller amount of lead and therefore can better handle hard cast lead bullets. I am merely passing on what I have read. I still have the article. It was in his article about reloading 38 Special rounds. Of course I don't remember the month or year but it was before 2008.

And yes I made a typo and that should have read hard lead bullets and not soft lead bullets in the first sentence. Thanks for catching that. I was sort of distracted. I had just took a fall on asphalt and tore up my hands and knees.

002.JPG 001.JPG
 
Oh yes. Just fine. Thank you for asking. A little sore. Mainly my chest muscles were strained from the fall. I have mild diabetes but neuropathy in my feet and lower legs and on occasion take a fall. It just part of having a bad case of TMB(too many birthdays) even though I am just 63.

I probably shouldn't have been back on the computer yet but its just so much fun. Thanks for catching my error in the other post.:thumbup:
 
Oh yes. Just fine. Thank you for asking. A little sore. Mainly my chest muscles were strained from the fall. I have mild diabetes but neuropathy in my feet and lower legs and on occasion take a fall. It just part of having a bad case of TMB(too many birthdays) even though I am just 63.

I probably shouldn't have been back on the computer yet but its just so much fun. Thanks for catching my error in the other post.:thumbup:
—-
It’s not the years, it’s the miles. If I had known I was going to live this long I’d have taken better care of myself when I was younger. Maybe.
 
I recall I read somewhere that HSM Hard Cast bullets are 15-16 BH.
Their hard cast is definitely hard.
Their Cowboy ammo is a little softer but still pretty hard as compared to say Bear Creek Supply bullets. I used the thumb nail test @Driftwood Johnson used.

Drives me nuts that I can’t find the info that I found a few years back with various bullet manufacturers lead bullets and their Brinell Hardness.
 
Drives me nuts that I can’t find the info that I found a few years back with various bullet manufacturers lead bullets and their Brinell Hardness.

I've lost so many links on the internet that if I find a good article and want to save it, I copy it and past it into Word. You can paste anything into Word.
I note the Author, the magazine or site, title it, and tuck it away in my library on my lap top.
 
I've lost so many links on the internet that if I find a good article and want to save it, I copy it and past it into Word. You can paste anything into Word.
I note the Author, the magazine or site, title it, and tuck it away in my library on my lap top.
I should do that as well.
I do save links on my iPhone and occasionally I will copy and post verbiage into iPhone Notes but sometimes it just doesn’t work out right or I will be pressed for time and think “I’ll do this later” but I forget later.
 
You got it right. And thats what Gil Sengal was saying that the equal lands and grooves displace more lead than the newer rifling with narrower lands that displace a smaller amount of lead and therefore can better handle hard cast lead bullets. I am merely passing on what I have read. I still have the article. It was in his article about reloading 38 Special rounds. Of course I don't remember the month or year but it was before 2008.

And yes I made a typo and that should have read hard lead bullets and not soft lead bullets in the first sentence. Thanks for catching that. I was sort of distracted. I had just took a fall on asphalt and tore up my hands and knees.

View attachment 963695 View attachment 963696
Ouch. My wife fell a week ago. Broke left knee cap and left arm. My sympathy pains are kicking.
Be careful.
 
If it uses black powder use pure soft.

Again, we are not talking Cap & Ball here, we are talking old Top Break cartridge revolvers.

For Cap & Ball, where you need to shave off some lead as you seat the ball, yes, only use pure lead.

For my Black Powder cartridges, back when I was casting my own bullets, I added a small amount of tin to the mix for casting in some of my molds. About 30/1 lead/tin.

The reason is, upon cooling pure lead bullets will shrink more than bullets that have a small amount of tin in them. Some of my molds were cut so that my bullets shrank the amount I wanted with a small amount of tin added. Other molds needed the bullets that came out of them to shrink a bit more on cooling, so I was casting them from pure lead.

So. When ramming a ball into a chamber to shave off some lead is not an issue, a little bit of tin does not hurt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top