Has S&W Perfected the 1911 Extractor?

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schmeky

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I am a huge 1911 fan. All my .45 ACP 1911's have, for the most part, been very good to excellent. However, I have had problems with the internal extractor (tension) on one of my 9mm, 1911's.

Does the external extractor on the S&W 1911 operate like all other external extractors in the sense that there is no adjustment needed, ever?

If so, this might be my next 1911.
 
Does the external extractor on the S&W 1911 operate like all other external extractors in the sense that there is no adjustment needed, ever?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Yes it does work like other external extractors, but I might point out that Kimber tried that solution and it didn't work out well. As for adjustments, if you get dirt or fouling under the extractor and/or the coil spring and its seat in the slide you can get issues, and it takes tools to disassemble the extractor for cleaning.

Browning knew all about external extractors. He used them in his earlier guns, and Colt continued to use them in the .32/.380 Pocket Model and .25 Vest Pocket Model. However he didn't use one in the 1911, and that should give people pause to think.

The main problem with today's guns is the use of improper material and heat treating in the extractor, and assemblers that just assemble, and do not fit the parts. None of the Browning guns were designed or intended to be built this way.
 
S&W external extractors are not like all others...they work. they are using the same extractor they've been using since the M-39. it is a design that just works
 
Aside from the normal extractors we are all familiar with, I think Para Ordnance has the best variant. The claw is really large and flings brass rather well.
 
I find some things about the S&W external extractors interesting.

1. They won't sell you a spare. You don't have the tools, gauges, and "torque bar" to put it in right.

2. They have two different versions. The standard 1911 mutants have what looks like the same hook used on their double action guns. The high dollar P.C. models have a much wider hook, similar to SIGarms, Caspian, and EGW.
Wonder why? Selling extractors by the pound on their more expensive guns?
 
Armscor used the Tanfoglio external extractor on the wide body 1911-A2 hicaps that I have in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. No extraction problems with any of them. I shoot a lot of steel cased ammo too, which should magnify any issues.

A spare extractor is easy to get from RIA or EAA and its a simple drive a pin out, replace and drive the pin back in swap -- requires more tools than to replace the 1911 internal though.

External extractors can work in a 1911, its just that Kimber's were never generally reliable, although I do have a Kimber BP with external extractor and its been fine.

--wally.
 
I have a safe full of S&W semis including six of their 1911s, probably tens of thousands of rounds downrange between all of them and never have I had a single problem due to the external extractor. S&W has them down to a science and I'd buy again in confidence knowing that besides their Customer Service is the best in the business. I sent one of my 4566s in two months ago to have the tritium vials replaced, they did it for free, paid shipping both ways and I had the gun back in four days!! Try that with any of the others!
 
I appreciate the replies. I have noticed S&W customer service consistently ranks at the top, another strong consideration for a S&W 1911.

I have never read anything overly negative about these 1911's and I am ready to buy something different, i.e., 1911 with an external extractor.
 
I would not use a S&W 1911 at even a local match even if the gun and ammo were free. Hilton Yam and George Smith have already explained the issues involved with external extractors in the 1911 including S&W's version.

If you have a choice (and I don't) why would you do it to yourself?
 
adweisbe wrote:
Hilton Yam and George Smith have already explained the issues involved with external extractors in the 1911 including S&W's version.
Click to expand...

I've reviewed some postings by Mr. Yam and don't see where he is critical of SW's extractor. He has stated:

"The Smith extractors have been exceedingly functional, and make the SW1911 a very reliable pistol, especially considering its price range."

"The internal extractor does not hold any advantage for an advanced user . . ."


"Given average execution of either design, the external extractor still has the edge:
-no hand fitting required to adjust hook dimensions
-no gauging, adjusting, or other black magic to achieve the desired tension
-spring temper of the component is not critical to proper function
-no fatiguing or damage of extractor from push feeding, Type III malfunction clearance (actual or drills), or chamber loading
-preventative maintenance requires only a drop in coil spring vs. replacing the entire component with another fitted unit."

"If you don't want them, then don't buy them. However, recognize that a properly executed external extractor design offers serious enhancements to functionality and durability for real world use."

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=317&an=0&page=1#317

Maybe I've missed something?
 
I would not use a S&W 1911 at even a local match even if the gun and ammo were free. Hilton Yam and George Smith have already explained the issues involved with external extractors in the 1911 including S&W's version.

If you have a choice (and I don't) why would you do it to yourself?
Click to expand...
I'll take people's experience shooting the gun over someone else's theory any day.
 
I have 2 1911s,a commander sized single stack and a full sized S&W. the Para throws my brass 6-8ft at about 2 o'clock and I can find 99% of my brass.
The S&W on the other hand launches them over my right shoulder and finding half my brass is a bitch. Neither gun has given me any serious problems.
BTW first thing I checked was the recoil spring S&W use an 18# spring so that's not the problem
 
The Kimber external extractor was much shorter - it doesn't even look like it would work well.

S&W's external and Para Ordnance's "Power Extractor" are indeed improvements (if they actually needed improvement).

--jcd
 
I think you should ponder the follow-ups to that article, also.
Click to expand...

Berkbw -- That's why I asked if I missed something. Adweisbe referred to comments without links. Now you have. If I am going to cite someone, I try to give a link. I did a Google search to find what I did. Please understand I am not taking any position on external vs. internal extractors. I am truly trying to understand.
 
Use the search Luke:
http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4117219&postcount=7
http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3857872&postcount=11

It was George Smith's explanation that clinched it for me. Provably inferior by reason and not just by my own experience. I am unfortunate enough to own three of them and I live in MA where our laws gives us little choice in 1911s. S&W knows about the problem and doesn't care enough to fix it because it's good enough for them to move off the shelves so they have no motivation to improve.

Don't take reliability advice from strangers. Most guns on the market never make it to any decent round count and most people don't use them in an environment where a jam will cost them in a way that they will pay attention. They tend to forget those "ammunition" or "magazine related failures" or any jam that isn't a royal PITA to clear.
 
It sounds as though the S&W extractor is not "perfect". Highlander5 makes a good point comparing his Para 1911's to his S&W 1911 in extraction mannerisms.

I know my Norinco custom 1911 with a tuned extractor has never failed to extract and throws brass in a relatively small radius similiar to Highlander5's comments on his Para. I wonder what is different about the Para's internal extractor design?
 
Thank you for the links. I will read them. I just did not know if they were even on this forum or not since Mr. Yam is associated with 10-8.
 
Norinco

Hi,
I've had a Norinco " Big Ten" for almost three years now. It was a lousy shooter to start with, but the accuaracy issue was fixed by an Ed Brown fitted Bbl bushing and some welding at the lug end. ( Yes, that's true) Shoots like a dream now. However, I'm into my third extractor, trying to solve my extraction problem. Latest one is called " Hardcore", by Ed Brown. Haven't had time for an extensive test yet. Comparing to my Tanfoglio TA 90 with external spring tension on the extractor, I would say that time has caught up with John Moses. I've shot my Tanfog for 18 years now, with only home cooked anno, without one single FTE.
Still looking for a GSR around here; importer advised 6 months waiting and $3000 for one. (shucks)
Sail Safe
Lafeswede
 
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