Having trouble justifying the Revolver on duty.

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635 PCSO

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Having trouble justifing the Revolver on duty.

A few months ago I started using a revolver on duty. I work with a rural Sheriffs office. Before the 686 I was toting a Glock 21 on my belt. I have no complaints about the 21 but the revolver was much more fun to shoot so I started putting the 686 to work. In my search for a good round I am having trouble finding a good 357 mag round that is better than a 9 or a 45. I always assumed the 357 mag would have better penetration and good expansion. According to the numbers I have found I cant justify the extra recoil and longer splits of the 357 over the 45 or 9.

This is not intended to be a debate over caliber or platform. I would just like to know if anyone has done some testing with the 357 4 inch and found results that beat the other common LEO rounds. Having said all of this I would like to continue to use the revolver. I can shoot more accurate and dry fire practice is much more beneficial. I just need some help selling this to myself. Is everything close to equal with modern ammunition? If so cant justify the extra recoil and slower reloads.
 
I know that years ago the 158gr .357 and the 230gr .45acp were the only two loads to successfully pass all the FBI test protocols, but that was before the advent of bonded bullets. I'm really not sure if it holds as much of an advantage as it once did. I've considered carrying a revolver for duty myself, but just cant get over the reloading advantages of the auto. I tend to shoot revolvers better too, but up close the auto is still faster.
 
What do you mean by "good round"?

For Goblins I would suggest either 125jhp (I use Rem but Federal is good also) or Georgia Arms 158 Gold Dot HP. Or if you want to shoot faster use +P 38 specials.

For four legs I would use Federal's Cast core 180 grain (it is a hardcast LBT type bullet).

I don't understand your problem. Splits and such only matter in games, in real world the gun that is easier for you to shoot well is the better one.

Are you shooting the revolver DA or SA?
 
Real world example. Ed Mirelas (sp?) used 5 rounds of buck (only managed to wound with buck) and 6 rounds of 38 +P 158 LHP from 4" L frame (killed with the 38's) in the Dade/Miami shootout. And that was after taking a 223 to the left arm.

The badguy's had a mini 14 and a shotgun plus 6" 357s.
 
Remington 125 JHP, in the green and yellow box with " High Velocity" as the primary text, product #R357M1. 1450fps from a 4" revolver and a bullet that hits like a truck. I load my own defensive ammo, thanks for not commenting on that, and this is the bullet I choose out of all of them on the market. I know at least one high end custom ammunition maker that also prefers this bullet for defensive ammo.

Unless going to a Cor-Bon or Pro-Load boomer load the Remington load is the ONE. Really reasonably priced too.

BTW, good on ya for having the stones to pack a wheelgun, and knowing you are good enough with it that you should carry it.
 
See if you can find...

any of the Federal 115 grain HP ammo. It's a real snot slapper. (That's a technical term....) Down side is the heavy blast and report. Recoil is snappy but controllable.

Any of the 158 grain SWC or flat meplat full charge ammo is pretty effective, too. Has recoil, but not unruly.

And my favorite is the WW 145 grain Silvertip ammo.
 
Start beating all the auto guys at quals. Thats all the justification you need. The .357 125gr is refered to as "The king of the hill" in stopping power debates. All other rounds are judged against it. On the other hand, you seem to think you can shoot a good auto faster and just as accurate, if thats the case, go back to the auto. If you handed me a 3" 65 and told me it was the only gun I could carry, 24/7 for the rest of my life on and off duty, I would be OK with that. Very OK.
 
Second what Sarg said!
125 gr. Check ProLoad.
The gold dots are good through auto glass.
One main worry on the road.
 
Actually, in a 686 or GP100 I'd strongly consider the 158grain Gold Dot-based loads. Example: the Pro-Load variant will do 1,250 from a 4" tube, which is about the same as Georgia Arms and Black Hills (two other good small-shop ammo houses that use Gold Dots).

It used to be that 158 expansion was problematic but with the new designs such as the Gold Dot, that issue goes away. Your net recoil is actually lower than some of the wilder 1,400/1,500 125s like the Cor-Bon and Remington and most people find the 158s to be more accurate (more bullet hitting the grooves).

And you'll get auto-glass punch from hell :).
 
Stay away from all of the A vs. B bickering and follow your instincts.

In the end it's the warrior spirit that will allow you to prevail.

So just carry whatever you feel the most confident with and fight the good fight.
 
Another good round to use is the Winchester 145gr Silvertip Hollowpoint. Works great out of my 4" Gp-100. In testing it does very well in velocity, expansion and penetration. Basically you get expansion like a good 9mm, 45acp penetration and 357magnum energy.
 
I'm curious. What does the SO and range officer(s) recommend? I assumed all departments only allow departmental ammuntion be carried in service weapons. For legal purposes.
 
635 PCSO,

It’s Christmas Eve, and the last thing I want – or intend – to do is incite yet another revolver versus autoloader debate.

I like – and trust my life to – .357 magnum revolvers. I own, shoot, and carry three Rugers (a 2.25 inch barrel SP101 and two four inch barrel GP100s) and three Smiths (all five in barrel 627s or 27-2s). All six are very accurate (even with my shaky 57 tear old hands and tired eyes) and utterly reliable, durable, and dependable.

There are many decent ammunition choices – virtually all previously outlined in this thread. I favor Georgia Arms Gold Dots, but would also literally bet my life on CorBon, Federal (HydraShok and “the old reliable†158grain LSWCHPs), Remington (Golden Sabers or 158 grain LSWCHPs), Winchester Silver Tips, as well as a few others.

It is my considered opinion that your S&W 686 loaded with ANY of these rounds will “do the jobâ€, if you do yours.

I want to close with an observation. I am not a law enforcement officer, although my father spent a career as an FBI SA (and firearms instructor) and I spent two decades as a Naval intelligence officer (carrying either an issued 1911A1 or a personal Smith 27-2 daily, at home and overseas). Obviously, the first rule in any gunfight is HIT THE TARGET. We have all read about Glock-armed LEOs in New York City, Philadelphia, etc. firing dozens of rounds and scoring only about 5 percent hits – and those frequently faraway from the center-of-mass or the head.

Clearly, that is disastrous! You have to wonder why? I respectfully suggest the answer is these police officers are not firearms people – they do not appreciate firearms, do not understand how they function, do not practice, do not become proficient, and do not even properly maintain them. When required to use their weapon in a life-critical situation, they abysmally fail.

I believe high capacity, very reliable, non-maintenance autoloaders – such as Glocks – exacerbate this dangerous situation. When an officer does not have to maintain his sidearm to ensure reliable operation or even to preclude rust, when he believes that fire-volume can be substituted for accuracy, the ingredients of a debacle are in place.

So, I urge you to remain a firearms zealot, to carry your S&W 686, with the certain knowledge that it is accurate, reliable, durable, and will last lifetimes when properly maintained. Use any of the top-rated .357 magnum loads (again, the Georgia Arms Gold Dot series is my current favorite) with confidence that they provide lethality at least equal to ANY generally employed semiautomatic round. And, most of all, remind your fellow officers that it’s not how many rounds fired, but how many that hit “the kill zone†that matters – a top-quality revolvers will help you maintain the “fire-fight accuracy†that saves lives, because it forces you to be firearms-aware and to make every shot count.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.
 
Everybody knows REAL men carry revolvers..........accuracy is #1,who cares how fast you can miss........most gun fights are like 4 rounds...unless you're in that bank robbers with AK's situation...and still if one guy could've made a head shot w/ a 357 it would've been another story.......:cool:
 
In the end it's the warrior spirit that will allow you to prevail.
Click to expand...

You know, the Japanese believed that too, and it won WWII for them, didn't it?

Regardless of the equipment you choose, train with it until it is second nature, and then train some more. "Warrior spirit" may be nice, but lots of good training with the weapons you use will keep you alive.
 
As a manstopper I don't think there's that much difference between 9mm and .357 magnum and .45 ACP (and .357 sig and .40 S&W). I would choose the caliber that you shoot the best.
 
Just bought a 5" smith&Wesson .45 colt model of 1989. If I were carrying in uniform, I'd give serious consideration to making that my primary weapon. Generally there is a greater variety of rounds for revolvers- i.e. I could carry the 210 jhp from CorBon for bipedal varmints, with a speedloader of their 300 grn/1300 fps jacketed soft point for quadrepedal nasties.

I'm just learning to shoot it- and I'm pleasantly surprised at how quickly I'm coming along- I can ring the plates consistently at almost the same pace as I do with my 4" 1911. (course that could mean that I'm pretty lousy with the 1911...*grin*)

I could imagine getting pretty quick with the gun- if you feel you're skills are up to par, go for it.

One other thought- don't know what policy is for your department, but you might want to consider a lever gun in the same caliber- I had a 20" rossi, something like eight round capacity...158 grn sjhp chronoed at ~1800 fps. That will definitely leave a mark! Plus, as someone else mentioned, a 180 grn hard cast out of that longer tube (1600 fps?) could be pressed into emergency service against a wider variety of dangerous animals than could, say, a 9/40/45.
 
Splits and such only matter in games, in real world the gun that is easier for you to shoot well is the better one.
Click to expand...

Guy, if I'm understanding correctly, he can hit faster with the auto. Wouldn't that make the auto "the better one"?

Not knocking carrying a wheelie- if I ever work in law enforcement, I may do the same, and when I carry a full-sized piece lately, it's been a 3" N frame.

635, in your situation- rural- I think I might have my typical antipersonnel loads, and then a speedloader full of deeper penetrating stuff in case you need to put down big game.
John
 
As mentioned earlier, the .357 125gr JHP is the defensive round which all others are usually judged. The .357 Sig auto round was even devloped to duplicate this round's ballistics for use in autoloaders.

I worked for 2 rural Sheriffs departments in northern MN during the '90's. One department was issuing Ruger .45 autos, the other issued Glock 19's. Even though I was trained on Glock 9mm's I chose to purchase & carry a S&W M65 4-inch .357. At that time I could fire a revolver much more accurately than an auto. Fast forward to now, several years later, and I have a Glock 19(9mm) riding on my belt for CCW. Now I am more accurate with an auto. This has developed after years of competition and defensive carry courses.

100% of the shots I took during my LE career were to put down animals that had been hit by vehicles along the roadside. This will most likely be your case also, usually once a week. Still, if you ever need to use a handgun for defense you should choose the one you're most proficient with.

I always hated going to a call that started like..."Disturbance outside of the Xxxxxx bar". This was when most shooting-related incidents occured, although we always arrived after it was over. Yet, in my life, I have seen 2 incidents were firearms were discharged during an argument outside of a bar. I also lost a friend at a house party when he was shot by another guest.

I would choose a sidearm that you can accurately shoot, at least, the distance of across a rural city street. Also, it will most likely occur under lowlight conditions. I always recomend the use of night sights. At the very least, have one on the front.

While most of us CC guys only need to save ourselves and the lives of immediate family members, where retreat is the easiest/best option, you are asked to save the public's, at times. This is why I specified, "across a rural city street". Were we would most likely engage a violent attacker at just 7yds, I think the average rural sheiriff would probably face distances that were 2,3, or 4 times that, or more. It would be interesting to see stats that only included distances of rural police-involved shooting. I'm sure it's probaly longer than shots taken by most metro or suburban officers, on average.
 
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I was a Police Firearms Instructor for 15 years. My advice is, and always has been, to carry the weapon that you're comfortable with, proficient with and have confidence in, if your department allows you to do so.

I prefer a Glock 17 in 9MM with 115 +P+ Federals. If another officer doesn't feel comfortable with anything except an 8 3/8 inch barrel M29 in .44 Magnum, then that's what he should carry. (Assuming, of course, that he can handle it proficiently!)

If your weapon is acceptable to your department, and you have confidence in it, you don't need to "justify" it.

Just my professional opinion.
 
635, I spent the last four of five years carrying a 4" 686 while working as an Armored Transport officer. I've since switched over to a Colt 1991.

My first thoughts on the 686 were negative as it was a revolver in a world of autos. Looking back on it now, I would gladly carry the 686 again.

I just recently returned from NC where I ran through a qualcourse using both the 686 and 1991. I was faster from the holster with the revolver because the grip is out there all by itself. With the 1991, I had to clear the grip safety and then come down to grip the weapon. Might seem like a small detail, but a fraction of a second is all it takes to get beaten in a gunfight.

An added plus? In the four years I carried the 686, I might have cleaned it half a dozen times, though I fired it thousands of times. I was curious to see how dirty it could get before giving me a problem, but it went through every shooting session without a hitch. You've got to love that kind of reliability.

As for ammo choice, any Gold Dot-based round is a sure bet, in my opinion. Personally, and this might sound weird, I really prefer to carry .38 +P instead of 357mag because the lighter recoil allowed me to empty the whole cylinder in record time. The weight of the weapon really dampens the shock of recoil so you're able to put all six rounds into the COM and then go for a reload. In one practice session, a buddy timed me while I went for a 6-shot; from the holster, I emptied the cylinder into a B27's COM in just over three seconds. What's better, six rounds of .38+P or two rounds of .357Mag?

I would also note that my prefered speedloader is the Safariland Comp II. With .38's, it really holds the rounds tight and straight so your reloads are fast! With .357's there is a bit of a wobble, but they are a heck of a lot tighter than an HKS speedloader or the Safariland Comp I. I haven't tried the JetLoader yet, but I also haven't seen a dutybelt carrier for them, either.

It's a great gun and you should be proud to continue that longstanding tradition of carrying a sixshooter. Heck, if my Colt gets a few more scratches, I might just be carrying a 686 with you.
 
I would recommend the 158 gr JHP loads from either Black Hills or Pro Load. I have a case of Black Hills but will probably go with Pro Load next because I can buy direct. Pro Load says 1260 from a 6" barrel on their website. While Pro Load definitely uses the Gold Dot bullet, Black Hills could use either XTP or Gold Dot, the website only specifies JHP. The bullet velocity chart on the Hornady website is interesting in that the .357 cal 158 gr XTP bullet is designed to function between 700-1400 FPS. I'm sure Gold Dots are similar.

Regardless, they are both top of the line loads in 158 gr. I shoot these from either a 4" S&W Mod 586, 6" Mod 28, 8" Mod 27 or 6" GP-100. My Mod 19's get a cooler .357 load or .38+P.
 
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I love revolvers, but I can't justify a revolver for duty or off duty carry.

Go back to your G21 and keep your 686 in your car with 158gr loads in case you need the penetration.
 
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