Hello from a complete NEWB!

[El Barto]

Thanks Nema!

Like I said, I am a man of few words, but that doesn't mean I'm not reading the boards.

I have just now began to get back into firearms. I live in Los Angeles and I swear, they don't make it easy here for us law abiders. Its strange checking out the wares at Turners or even Big 5 since everyone here is so anti-gun. I feel less ashamed going into a dirty bookstore. Oh, and don't get me started on the DROS/background fee (tax) I have to pay everytime I buy a firearm.

 

[akodo]

What I have to constantly remind myself, is that the fun of shooting isn't entirely logical. It has a certain x factor that each person needs to define for themselves. It may be collecting 13 different versions of the luger, or a single 50 BMG rifle and extreme long range accuracy, firing off the 'holy black' in cap and ball revolvers, or whatever.

The truth of it is many new shooters aren't interested in a .22, no matter the logic, (of course, there is no logic in buying a new 7mm wondermag when the old 30-06 you already have still works fine, but it sure is FUN) There is a pretty understandable desire to own a firearm that packs some power. And I suppose there is some logic in the thinking if you are going to own a gun, might as well have something that has some power behind it just in case a gun is needed (and facing down an armed robber is much more likely than using a .22 rifle to harvest game after y2k type disaster)

Hence, I now recommend a quality .22 handgun or rifle as a MUST HAVE second purchase.

Besides, if you don't reside in a rural area, a trip to the range may well cost $20 in fees hence even a supposedly 'cheap' .22 isn't very cheap any more!


Given the posters criteria, while I think a 38special/357 revolver 4 inch barrel adjustable sights is an EXCELLENT chioce and should be considered...

I'd have to recommend checking out the Ruger p95. Some see it as kinda blocky, but I think it looks great. It is a very solid gun, and extremely economoical too. (that's another thing, new shooters often are not willing to commit the $800+0 for a sig, but $400+ for a ruger is more swallowable)

I'd also recommend the Taurus PT92, which is an inexpensive near copy of the Beretta 92, (which is issued to our troops as the M9)

A full sized 9mm has a lot to offer. It is pretty controllable for a new shooter, and these models are reasonably priced. Now, the makers others have listed are very quality as well, just often not quite as economical.

Now, you note you have small hands. You may want to look at 'single stack' models.

Let me explain for a minute. Most 'standard' full sized 9mms have capacities of around 15 rounds now. This is accomplished with two rows of cartridges 7 high, plus 1 more on top, in a magazine inserted into the grip of the handgun. Hence this can result in a wide grip, not fitting well with small hands. The altertative is a handgun build around a single stack of cartridges. If this is the case, as far as economy, I would again recommend some of the Taurus line, I am sure others can list them off the top of thier heads, I cannot. I don't think ruger makes any single stack models aside from 45acps. I would recommend the SmithandWesson 908, it is a solid gun, reasonably sized, reasonably priced, and slim. As far as more expensive models go, the Sig 239

Another thing you talk about is 'kick' We here usually call this 'felt recoil'. The reason is, a cartrige of a specific loading will have X amount of recoil. However, how this recoil is perceived varies, partly by a person's experience and tollerance, but partly due to weapon design, proper fit in hand, etc etc.

the biggest and easiest factor to remember is that 'heavy guns kick less'. think about it this way. You drop a firecraker in a popcan, it is going to go flying into the air when the firecraker bangs. Put the same firecracker in a thick metal box, it moves a lot less. A heavy gun will move less, and move more slowly, making a push that feels a lot better on your hand than a sharp jab. This heavier mass is why many people are recommending full sized 9mm handguns. The 15-18 round capacity is just gravy!

This is the one area where a small handed person can get into some difficulty. Often slim guns are designed to be concealed, (thicker ones show up more) and are hence ALSO made light weight to make them easier to carry all day long. However, light guns, as discussed above, are going to have more felt recoil. Still, the S&W 908, the Sig 239, and also the all stainless steel Kahr K9 are single stacks, build for concealing, but still plenty of heft to tame that recoil.

now, there are also 'compact' models, these are normally not much different from thier full sized cousins. they normally just have barrels that are 0.5-1.5 inches shorter, and the grip/magazine is a tad shorter, usually having 2 less rounds of capacity. An example of this would be a sig 229 (compact) vs a sig 226 (full sized) If the wide grip fits in your hand, the slight less weight of a compact model will have an extremely small change in felt recoil. In fact, it may fit your hand a little better, and hence have LESS felt recoil.

final note, there are also subcompacts, with even shorter barrels and even shorter grips, The Glocks build around 10 shot magazines are an example of this. They are pretty much as wide as their bigger cousins, so unless you have a real need for not having as long a grip, stick with something that you can fit your entire hand on, in my opinion

 

[blackbok]

Well, it's been a wile since I checked in, but here's what's new: I ended up buying the HK USP 9mm. After much much much research and questions, I wanted to se how this thing felt in my hands. I went to a less than local gun store, as everyone around me did not have the model in stock. The people there were very freindly and helpfull, which has not been my experience with other gun stores.
Once I got it in my hands, I knew it was the one.
Anyhow, picked it up today, so there it is! CAn't wait to go christen it.

Now, here come the questions (I would have asked these at the store, but as I was getting out of my truck to p/u, I saw that my truck had been keyed the entire length of the drivers side. So, I was somewhat numb as I was signing and inspecting everything.)

Do I need to clean before I shoot the first time? I bought the cleaning kit and some dummy rounds in my haze.

What is a good ammo for:
a)target practice
b)home defense... hollow point, right?

Is dry firing OK for home practice? I've heard yes and no, just don't want to wear anything.

Any tips for the first time I take it to the indoor range? SHould I just buy ammo there, or bring my own?

Thanks again for all of the advice, and I guess I'll report back once I've put some through.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

SA XD9301HCSP06 9mm Service Model, 4 in barrel, 15 +1 rounds, 25 Oz. Bi-tone, polymer, MSRP $566

CZ 75 D PCR 01190 9mm, 3.9 in barrel, 14 + 1 rounds, 22 Oz. Black, Light Alloy. MSRP $ 539

Sigpro SP2022 9mm, 3.9 in barrel, 15 + 1 rounds, 25 Oz. Black, polymer, MSRP $ 640


all can be had for less than MSRP if you shop around or attend a gun show...YMMV.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

IRT HK USP: You can't go wrong with basically any reputable pistol from a respectable manufacturer. If you are happy with your purchase, you're golden. There are many people who believe that HK makes the best pistols in the sub-$1000 range. That may or may not be true, but I don't know anyone who thinks that HK is a inferior product. You'll certainly never feel that you compromised on this purchase.

IRT 9mm AMMO: for target practice, usually the best deal is WWB (Winchester White Box), which is usually available at Wal-Mart or other large chain stores for about $4.50/50rds. For self-defense, there are a variety of HP or fragmenting ammo choices. Check out what's available in your area, run a "Search" on THR to find consensus on it, buy some and make sure it shoots reliably in your pistol. Different types of ammo feed slightly differently in different pistols, so you want to make sure that the defensive ammo you buy is a good match for your HK.

IRT CLEANING: cleaning rod (or pull-through rope equivalent), bore brush, jag to hold cleaning patches, cleaning patches, and either solvent and lubricant, or a one-step solv/lube product like Breakfree (the same thing as CLP). One-step products are more convenient, although some believe that a one-step isn't quite as good at either tasks as two separate products. But it's a pretty academic question. Consider this: the military guys who actually use this gear in jungles and deserts use CLP, so it can't be that bad. If you want two separate products, any brand of gun oil and any powder solvent (like Hoppe's) will do you.

IRT DRY FIRING: The general consensus is that dry-firing will not wear out any modern centerfire firearm. That said, read the manual that came with your HK (_definitely read the manual anyway, always good policy) and see what it says about it. If you're concerned about it, a "snap cap" dummy round costs a couple bucks, and will prevent any theoretical wear. So if $5 can bring you peace of mind, give it a try. EDIT: you already have dummy rounds, might as well use them.

IRT RANGES: 99% of ranges insist that you use their ammo in _rental_ guns, and maybe 25% of ranges insist that you use their ammo in your gun. I'd call the range and ask if you can bring your ammo for _your_ gun.

Strongly advise that you focus on getting out and shooting your firearm extensively before you go too crazy buying other guns or accessories (except a holster and spare mags). Too many gunnies (myself included) spend too much time shopping for guns and not enough time putting lead downrange. Take a break from buying, and focus on practice.

If you have decent income, seriously consider investing in some handgun training. Not from Joe-Bob who works down at the range and shoots tin cans, but from someone with actual credentials.

After you get basic skills down, consider getting involved in an action-shooting sport like IDPA to learn to shoot and move under pressure. Sure it's a "game", but it is good for some basic skills, and tons of fun.

Congrats on your new purchase, good to hear your enthusiasm! Take care,

-MV

 

[trickyasafox]

seriously welcome aboard

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Now, for me paper punching ammo is cheaper at Academy for Russian Barnaul Monarch brand. YMMV.
as for defensive ammo, i have never shot a human being. that said, if you can't stop an attempt on your life w/ 2-3 rounds of 9mm FMJ to the vital target zones, then SHTF and the caliber has nothing to do with the results...i like you have heard/read the reports of attackers shot with up to 10 rounds of .40, .357, .45, 10 mm before they were put out of their misery...so for an average attacker, i feel 9mm should do it. otherwise, you have special circumnstances which don't necessarily respond to a specific caliber as i've mentioned before. if it works for the world's militaries, then it can work for me..

 

[Bama61]

My first 9mm was a Star Ultrastar. It was a polymer DA pistol. It was kinda compact but very thick. I never really put all that many rounds through it. I just never really liked it that much. I then bought a Ruger P-95. It was a very reliable and accurate gun. I sold it because it was just too big for concealed carry. I regret selling it. I think that Ruger makes a very good, dependable, pistol, but I do wish they would come out with something that would be easy to conceal. Hopefully the new P345 is a step in the right direction.

I do not see how you could go wrong with a Ruger. I have rented a CZ75 at the range and it is a very good pistol. It fits my hand like it was made for it.

I think that a DA pistol with a decocker would be a good choice for a first pistol, but the Glock 19 is also a good shooter.

Bama61

 

[akodo]

well, I for one advise you to reconsider and purchase a .22 handgun, or choose to start with a revolver. A nice 38 special or 357 with a 4 inch barrel (6 is okay too) and adjustable sights wiould be great! Or kill two birds with one stone, pick up a ruger single six .22 revolver!

Anyhow, if you choose to ignore that, lets talk inexpensive guns for a minute.

On a shoestring budged, the Makarov is the way to go. It is bascially a walther ppk (read - james bond gun) sovietiezed, it is made a tad bigger and a hell of a lot tougher, and uses a slightly exotic type of 9mm, 9x18mm (normal 9mm is 9x19mm = the case is 1mm longer. ammo is NOT interchangeable) This is so cheap ($200) that you can easily buy it AND a ruger .22 revolver.

Setting that aside, as others have mentioned ruger makes one hell of a strong reliable and accurate semi-auto, plus they are the cheapest of all the big famous manufacturers. They will be a bit cheaper (10-20%) than most other 'name brand' guns. The ruger P95 is a 9mm, snythetic bottom, 15 round magazines, it will do you good. Alternatively, CZ and taurus makes quaility inexpensive products at about the same price range.

Regarding the H&K USP in 9mm, compact or otherwise, it is a fine gun, but it, along with sigs and walthers are going to be at the top end of the price list. If you are pausing on the sig because fo the price, skip the H&K stuff too.


(Now, i've listed H&K, Sig, and Walther as the higher $$ end of the big name handgun manufactures, and put Ruger, Taurus, and CZ in the lower $$ end, what's in the middle? Glock, Beretta, Smith and Wesson)

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Guys, he already bought the HK USP.

Recommendation time is over, congratulation time began yesterday.

 

[akodo]

ANSWERS!

Oh, I didn't see you had bought already... anyways


Do I need to clean before I shoot the first time? I bought the cleaning kit and some dummy rounds in my haze.

"dummy rounds" what do you mean by this. make sure YOU know before you put them in. I don't know if you mean snap caps, blanks, or 'dummy' because you bought whatever box they handed you.

No, brand new gun, you can do just fine without cleaning. Possibly put a drop of lube on the slide and swipe a single patch down the barrel. Contrary to TV, guns aren't like brushing your teeth, dusting your china, or polisihing your silver. You shoot, then clean, then store until you go shooting again. No need to occasionally haul it out just for a cleaning.


What is a good ammo for:
a)target practice
The cheaper the better in my book. Look for blazer or remington umc, or basically whatever is cheap. FMJ ball ammo is probably the bullet type

b)home defense... hollow point, right?

buy what shoots best in your pistol! Of course, you don't know what this is, and probably for a while, your shooting skill, being new, is going to make this hard to figure out. Pretty much every manufacturer makes a 'special' type of pet hollowpoint, and these seem to be pretty good. Look for something marked Hydrashock, Silvertip, Golden Saber, Federal Premium Home Defense, Speer Gold Dot, etc etc.

here is a nifty picture http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/remington.aspof some different bullet types, but yea, stick to either plain jane hollowpoints or these special hollowpoints. You will probably face a bunch of different weight bullets for your 9mm, stick with 124grain for home defense, it is good middle ground, giving you the best of both worlds.

Is dry firing OK for home practice? I've heard yes and no, just don't want to wear anything.

Spend 5 bucks and get some 'snap caps' these are red plastic fake bullets made specifically to be put in a gun and dry fired.

EVEN THOUGH IT IS JUST A SNAP CAP BE AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE ONLY DRY FIRE WITH THE GUN POINTED AT A SPOT WHERE IF BY SOME HORRENDOUS MISTAKE YOU GET YOUR BULLETS MIXED UP OR SOMEONE IS TRYING TO PLAY A STUPID JOKE ON YOU THAT NO ONE IS HURT OR KILLED! GETTING USED TO HAVING SNAP CAPS AROUND HAS LEAD TO MANY 'MISTAKES' WITH REAL BULLETS!


Any tips for the first time I take it to the indoor range? SHould I just buy ammo there, or bring my own?

Bring your own, it will be cheaper. The range may well want to inspect your ammo, but anything by a major manufacturer will be fine. They basically are checking to make sure you don't have some surplus soviet ammo piercing stuff that will tear up the back end of the gunrange.

Check out bulk ammo deals at places like 'cheaper than dirt' or 'sportsman's wharehouse'.

I recommend bringing MORE than you plan to shoot with, becaue you can always come back later. Don't think that just because you brought 200 rounds means you HAVE to shoot all 200. If after 100 rounds you are worn out, call it a day. Firing guns makes people use different muscles, but more importantly, concentrate mentally in a way they haven't before. Sore eyes and head-ache after range time is pretty frequent by people who should have taken a break or quit earlier. For the first day at the range, I'd buy 2 boxes of 50 rounds each of 2 different types of relatively inexpensive ball/fmj ammo. Two different types is so just in case for some reason your gun is finicky and doesn't like one type, you got the other!

 

[The Outlaw Josey Wales]

As far as shooting tips go I would recomend that you try to find a copy of "Everybodie's Survival Guide: A Guide From The Green Berets".

It has sections on shotgun, rifle and pistol shooting with tips that seem to work pretty well. A few weeks ago I shot a Bursa .380 semi-automatic pistol for the first time. Give you guys an idea of my shooting experience ( or lack of it!) I had only shot a handgun once before that, unless you count afew bb guns and airsoft pistols. anyways, I was awful. I think I actualy hit the target about 3 times. Afterwards I read Everybodie's Survival Guide: A Guide From The Green Berets and last weakend when I went shooting (this would be my third time shooting a handgun) I hit the target 4 times. This may not seem like much improvement except that the first time I was shooting at an 18 inch square paper target and I only managed to get one near the five ring, the other two hit the white part outside the one ring. This time I was shooting from about 5 feet farther back and, instead of the large paper target, I was shooting at empty Pepsi cans.

As an added bonus the book is indestructible. I don't mean that the pages are made of steal(a change suggested by thomas edison). What I do mean is that if your book is destroyed all you have to do is send in the cover, or whats left of it, and they will replace your book for free! Well, you pay for the shipping, but that's it.

by the way if you could check out my thread, it's under gunsmithing, labeled

Inexpensive Handgun/High-Power Rifle, or something like that. any feedback on the two questions I have on there would be great.

Thanks



Lesly Neilson's aproach to law enforcement:

Mayor: Now Drebin, I don't want any trouble like you had on the South Side like last year, that's my policy.
Frank: Well, when I see five weirdos dressed in togas, stabbing a man in the middle of the park in front of a full view of 100 people, I shoot the freaks, that's my policy.
Mayor: That was a Shakesphere In The Park Production of Julius Caesar, you moron! You killed five actors! Good ones!

 

[blackbok]

Whoops. I meant snap caps when I say "dummy rounds".

told ya I was a newb.

 

[blackbok]

Oh, and I also just (last night) ordered a DVD "Mastering the HK USP".
I figured reading is great, but seeing someone actually perform even basic functions would be benificial. Should arrive Friday.

And I know I started in this thread saying the Sig was out of my price range, and I ended up buying the HK (which was pricey). But I figured the difference of some cash and getting something I wanted rather than compromised on was worth it. One I got that thing in my hands, I knew she must be mine!

 

[ruger270man]

If you're going to carry, get a Glock 19. Otherwise, get a Glock 17.



EDIT: I suppose I shouldve read the whole thread..

its funny you bought a USP, and said "But I figured the difference of some cash and getting something I wanted rather than compromised on was worth it."..

HK's slogan happens to be "In a world of compromise, some don't"