Help: Can anyone I.D.-found in an attic of an old French house.

[fartypants]

Hi,
Here may be a tough one... found recently in an attic of an old French house.
37" Long, octagenal barrel, 5/8" Calibre (measured at muzzle end), only markings on top side are similar to extended cross on house shape, may be damascus barrel, marks on underside of barrel - may be securing clips at mearsurements from stock end 2 and 1/4", 15 and 1/2" and 34 and 1/4", front sight.
Here are some photos to assist.
I hope you can let me know your thoughts asto what this is. Thanks all.
Phil.

 

[Ron James]

Is there rifling visible inside the tube. If not, I'm not even sure it is firearm related.

 

[mbogo]

It's a fencepost.

mbogo

 

[Cosmoline]

Looks like a badly-eroded flash hole on the right side, and the indications of a lock against the barrel there at some point. Maybe a percussion nipple that's fallen off. Perhaps some kind of home-made muzzleloaded farming fowler? The odd thing is that hole on the top back of the barrel. It's almost like a primitive kind of peep sight. That I have not seen before.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Look for proofs, if it was continental and made by a gunsmith, then it should have gone to a proof house and be marked accordingly.

 

[Ron James]

The OP already stated he checked for markings and found only the one odd mark. Re Looking at it again, I'm still not convinced it was ever a firearm related part. The breech end does not look like a breech end, no hook or screw to attach a stock, the flash hole is too low and no provisions for attachment of any type of lock. I think it is just a piece of iron pipe. However, I don't think there is enough left of whatever it was to ever make a proper identification.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's obviously more than just a raw iron pipe. The hexagonal shape is pretty unusual for pipes, and the chances of it having a flash hole on the right side plus what appears to be the base for a front sight plus the odd church etching are slim.

Why would anyone do that to a pipe? One answer is to make a TOY gun. I wonder how big this thing is.

 

[Jim Watson]

He said it was 37" long and 5/8" bore.

It is octagonal with a nice little wedding band in the middle.

It has a lug for a patent breech of some sort.

The split block front sight is a European thing, last seen on the H&K VP70.

I don't know what the hole in the breech is, funny place for a sight.
Say, is it on the top or bottom? If the bottom (relative to the sight) it might be threaded for the end of the ramrod to secure it from loss.

 

[Ron James]

I said I could be wrong, but there are just too many inconsistency with it. However, what ever it started off as, in the condition it is in, as one suggestion stated, a nice fence post

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi fartypants,


Maybe an image showing the overall?

And, one of whatever the other side is, of the Breech?

Is the part with the small 'hole' which some are saying was a sight, is that even on the top at all? Or is it on the bottom? ( Top being the side the front sight it on ).


Maybe some close side views of the Breech, close ups, taken from the side and not from behind, so we can see if there is a screwed in Breech.


And one of the Muzzle end, end on, so we can see how thick the Barrel is relative to the Bore.

 

[Jim K]

Well, it is octagonal and has a screwed in breechplug, both features more in line with a gun barrel than a piece of pipe. I think it is very old, and was once part of a matchlock. The far back position of the flash hole points in that direction (match lock cocks worked backwards from the later flintlock cocks and percussion hammers).

Just my $.02, adjusted for inflation.

Jim

 

[Cosmoline]

Jim, I think you've got it. Cruising matchlock images I noticed several with odd peep-type sights in that same location. And front sights installed front-to-back instead of in more modern dovetails. It would also explain the rather crude "proof" marking.

 

[Gottahaveone]

Actually, no it isn't funny. It's a stupid and tired old joke that insults some of the bravest soldiers ever to do battle. Go tour Verdun and make that wisecrack.

Or Dien Bien Phu. Took a LOT of stones to take a one way parachute ride into a hopeless battle just to support your brothers in arms.

For what my opinion is worth, it does indeed look to be an old matchlock. I'm not sure if that's s crude peep on top or a screw hole to attach it to the stock. Whatever, it's a cool old piece of history

 

[fartypants]

Hi All,
Sorry for the delay in getting back with a couple of new pics... I wish I had said it was found in an old English loft now having seen the comments... I myself retired to France from England after 33 years as a Police Officer. The way of life over here far exceeds any other I've known. The French where we live are polite and helpful. There are still deep divisions between families over here as to their actions during the war and they generally refer to each other as the good french or bad french. Anyway I can only speak as I find and I am happy being here. A general comment in UK made was 'The only thing wrong with France was the French' but when you ask someone to explain the saying they can't. It may have been that way in the past but now it's different I think.
I sure that all our countries can be critisized for some previous actions so we must be careful when making accusations against others.

Back to the original matter.... I think that it is as suggested a matchlock....
I would love to know the meaning of the symbol. Cosmoline might be right and it's a crude proof mark. Anyway keep the comments coming it would be great if we could solve this little puzzle.
Thanks to you all.
Phil.
The pics are taken with the barrel in the correct upright position.

 

[Jim K]

I can't help but wonder what you would have done if you had found someone with that evil gun in the UK.

Jim

 

[fartypants]

Jim,
I would have raised a white flag and said it was a fence post.....
Phil.

 

[doodle bug]

Maybe its of turkish origin taking into account the hexagon barrel ? or maybe from a french north or west african colony... remember matchlocks were still used in africa and the middle east a long time after the flintlock was introduced.. just a thought

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi fartypants,


The Tang ( at the Breech, which would permit mounting to a Stock of some sort ) is all wrong...or it seems to be wrong to me, where I would expect it to be much longer to be let into a Stock.

But, I have never had any occassions to examine European or 'Trade' type Matchlock era Fire Arms to have seen how they were designed in these details.


The Touch-Hole on the side appears much too large in diameter or size, and is quite jagged and oddly situated in a small horizontal depression, whose surrounds appear to have something like Solder or maybe Brazing ( I do see some hints of Verdigris ) maybe, as if something 'flat' had been Soldered or Brazed there...such as a Flash Pan for some sort of Lock I would suppose.


Touch Hole should be quite small and round, far as I would know or guess.


Other than the oddness or improbibilioty of the Breech Tang, and, of the jagged, over-large, irregular Touch-Hole, it does have the mood of a very old item, which had attributes suggesting it was indeed a Barrel of a Fire Arm.


Does anyone here know, were the Breeches Forge Welded in , in those 'early' Fire Arm days?

I see no hint of a Screwed in Breech, but I do not know when that would have got started, so, early ones may have had Forge Welded Breech Plugs for all I know.



Anyone know - were early Breech Plugs Forgings, which were Forge Welded to the Barrel? Or, were they sometimes of Cast Iron and Forge Welded in?


Can you tell if the Breech Plug and abbreviated Tang on this old Barrel appear to be Cast Iron, or, forged?


And or if in the mood, post some additional close up images of that area from different sides and from on end?

 

[Cosmoline]

I think it looks all wrong to us because we're so used to the standardized screw-in breech with much, much finer steel machining. Take a look at the closeup of this matchlock, I believe it's N. African:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UI23lxX93...AAIA/Is8eYbjR_rc/s1600-h/labeledmatchlock.jpg

The flash hole is huge, the tang is nothing more than a stub of iron sticking into the stock. I think the design pre-dates the "modern" breeches.

And take a look at this Turkish matchlock. It does have the more modern tang, but also has a weird "peep" style sight right where that hole is on the OP's barrel.

http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/...ock rifle/?action=view&current=Peepsight1.jpg

 

[Jim K]

I am fairly sure the touch hole is badly rusted out and was a lot smaller originally. The third picture in the original post does show what looks like a screwed in breech plug.

More modern muzzle loaders have long tangs, but some very old guns do have something like that short tang inletted into the stock.

Jim

 

[doodle bug]

Cosmoline. im sure both you and i are thinking along the same lines gun making was a cottage industry in the era of match locks in turkey and north africa also southern spain !!!! I don,t think the mark means anything other than a primative personal stamp of the barrel maker or the particular village it was made in... turkey exported goods to north africa during this period and arab slave traders raided both the east and west coast of africa ..... i may wrong ..but thats nothing new

 

[Oyeboten]

I accidently ran into some images showing Match Lock Barrels, and the ones shown has odd 'stubby' sort of Breeches indeed...so this would seem to affirm the practice for those times or Arms of the time - to have a short, stubby sort of 'Tennon' at the Breech.

 

[blackomega]

Saw some pics close to this

I'm new here and after a quick google saw these pics from an old turkish matchlock. Seems it looks close.....

Notice the short nub and screwed in breech, maybe the "tang" was broken or rusted off
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/...ock rifle/?action=view&current=Peepsight1.jpg

They seemed to used peep sights as well
http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/...ion=view&current=Turkishmatchlockrifle009.jpg

http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/...ion=view&current=Turkishmatchlockrifle003.jpg