Help Identifying and finding more info on what I think is a Italian Vetterli-Vitalis

[AngryPossum]

My friend inherited this rifle from his grandfather. The story goes that his grandfather brought this rifle back from Okinawa, japan during WW2.

Can you guys give me some better info on this rifle? I'm trying to figure out if this story is accurate. How did an Italian rifle from 1882 end up in 1940's Japan? Does anyone actually know an instance where the Japanese used these?

I think its 10.4mm (or .41), I have not inspected the rifle in person, so I cannot determine whether or not it was converted to the 6.5 carcano round (I read somewhere the Italians were short on carcanos and converted these.)

Anyone have any idea what this could be worth?

Any info or confirmation on exactly what type of rifle this is, how it may have got to Japan, or general history of the rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Here are a couple of pics he sent me:

 

[Ron James]

Good grief, no, the Japanese did not used Vetterli, ever. These were sold by mail order houses such as Gander mountain in the 60's/70's. Okinawa!, Japanese !, WWII !,Good grief.:banghead: This rifle was never in Okinawa, was never used in WWII, Never used by any Japanese Military personnel, and before some one posts about last ditch weapons, no it was never used as a last ditch weapon, it was never used in WWII period. Sorry about that

 

[AngryPossum]

I doubted the story was accurate as well, which Is why I created the thread.

As far as the M1870 Italian Vetterli's use in WW2...it is very possible. During WW1 the Italians were short on arms and converted many of these to the 6.5x52mm carcano round and added a carcano style magazine. The rifle didn't just disappear after WW1. I believe its very possible they may have seen some use during WW2.

 

[Ron James]

Angry possum, you can believe anything you want, the fact remains the Vetterlls were re chambered durring WWI, but they never used by either the German, Japanese or Italian Service in WW II. They were never so short of rifles that they would use black powder rifles. The Japanese had Beretta built Type 1 rifles, that were warehoused and stored because they were not Japanese built and as a result the survived the war in almost new condition. On Okinawa the Japanese where not short of weapons or ammo. The grand father owned the Vetterll, he was in WWII and fought on Okinawa, , hence the Vetterll must be a war trophy for Okinawa. I'm not dumping on you Angry Possum, but rather on your friend.

 

[AngryPossum]

I think I pretty much just said everything you just posted in my previous posts, so I'm not really sure how to respond. I did not believe the "bring back" story to be accurate....hence my thread. I was merely inquiring about it in case there was some way this rifle could have made it over there...even though I think it is next to impossible it ever did.

As far as the vetterli's use in WW2. Around 500,000 of these were converted to the 6.5 carcano round.

We used our WW1 guns in WW2, we used our WW2 guns in the korean war, we used our korean war guns in Veitnam. (I've also read stories of soldiers being issued 1903s, 1903A3's, and M1917s in Veitnam).

So you are telling me that at no time, under no circumstances there was possible chance that during WW2 the converted Italian Vetterlis saw action or were issued to Italilian soldiers?

 

[Ron James]

I guess anything is possible, perhaps they were used by Italian military on Okinawa.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think it's pretty likely at least some of these surfaced during WWII, though the closest connection to the Japanese was an effort by their agent to arm the Finns with surplus swiss Vertterlis.

With funds received from Col. Akashi the Finn leading the project, Konni Zilliacus, bought from Paris and Hamburg over 15,000 Vetterli rifles {ed. note - they were Model 1869/71s} with ammunition, discarded by the Swiss Army. Also an old cargo vessel, the S/S John Grafton, was acquired for transporting the rifles.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...japan+swiss+vetterli&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[AngryPossum]

I guess anything is possible, perhaps they were used by Italian military on Okinawa.

Thanks for adding more useful info Ron, you've been invaluable to this discussion.

I think it's pretty likely at least some of these surfaced during WWII, though the closest connection to the Japanese was an effort by their agent to arm the Finns with surplus swiss Vertterlis.

Cosmoline thanks for the link....Interesting article.

 

[Jim K]

It is the normal story. The ancestor was a war veteran. This was the ancestor's rifle. Therefore, this was the rifle the ancestor carried in or brought back from the war. For some reason, few families even consider that the ancestor may have simply bought the gun. Trying to explain the story by some flight of fancy (Italian troops on Okinawa!) is just adding to the silliness.

The rifle is a standard (unconverted) Vetterl-Vitali. The maker's name and the date of manufacture should be on the left side of the barrel, opposite the serial number.

Jim

 

[AngryPossum]

Thanks jim. Is there any real historical value or monetary value to this thing or is it just another common wallhanger? Found this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSdjkeUDhMA&feature=related

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd suggest going to the gunboards subforum on Italian rifles--there is a small cadre of collectors there who have all kinds of info:

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?10-Italian-Firearms-Forum

The idea of a regiment of hapless Italian gentlemen (as the British called them) armed with archaic rifles getting caught up in some obscure movement of Axis troops that deposited them on a far Pacific island is worthy of a film, even if it never happened.

 

[Ron James]

You're right Angry Possum, It was uncalled for and I should not have posted it. Sorry about that. Let me try again, anything is possible but I find it unlikely the rifle was obtained from Okinawa. Since the Italians were never short of small arms I also find it highly unlikely that these rifles were ever issued for use during WWII. I have never seen any reference of it being used by any service , even cadets, during that time period. Of course there are a lot of things I haven't seen, and I could be wrong, been wrong before and I know I will be wrong again.

 

[Jim K]

Just for the record, and to clear up some misconceptions, the Italians fought the Austrians in the Alps for several years, under horrible conditions, and did so with great bravery and a trial of endurance even worse, if possible, than that of the western front trenches. They lost hundreds of thousands of men and much equipment, which is why they converted those old rifles in the first place, to serve as a last ditch reserve. I am not sure when or if any actually saw combat, but their very existence shows how bad the fighting in that area was.

After WWII, they were among the tons of other milsurp rifles imported into the U.S. from Europe and were sold in the $10 category, along with other "war surplus junk" like SMLE's and No. 4 rifles ($14). (OK, Enfield fans, just kidding about the "junk". )

Jim