Help me find a rifle that simulates the "feel" of the M16A2

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

chishinken

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2003
Messages
7
Hello, guys. First post. :D

I've got a friend who is going to basic training for the Army next year (MOS 11B), and he really wants to be able to practice for the marksmanship test, since he has not fired a rifle since he was 7 years old.

Basically, I myself am ignorant of the differences between rifles, and the gentlemen of www.arstechnica.com speak of you with the highest respect, so I figured I would seek out your aid.

I'm looking to help my friend look for a rifle that costs less than $500 but simulates the general "feel" of the standard issue army rifle so that he can practice. We're not looking for any fancy scopes or anything, just a nice, reliable rifle that will help him get ready for the test (he wants to qualify as an expert, since the recruiter says it will afford him more options). Again, it doesn't have to be pretty or be an incredible marvel of technology, but it should still get the job done.

If you know of any reliable dealers that supply your suggested weapon(s), any links would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Have your buddy save up his jellybeans for a bit and buy a good AR15( A2 carry handle model). I've seen new Bushmaster A2s for as low as $699 at local gunshows. You want the carry handle model with a 20" barrel.

I wouldn't sweat the marksmanship training. Your buddy will have ample time practicing with his issue M16 doing both live fire and dry fire drills. Some of the best shooters who qualify expert have never touched a rifle or have had very limited experience with weapons.

Why? Because they don't have any bad habits to break and they learn from scratch the first time the proper way.

Good Shooting
Red
 
any full sized AR with A1 or A2 open sights will be fine

I had put several 1000 rounds downrange with my own AR-15A1 before going to Army basic. It helped me ALOT because I could tell a jam by the different recoil and start to clear it before the next target popped up...........while the other troops did not realize there was a jam until they pulled the trigger. It used to drive the DIs friggin nuts as I would have the jam cleared and be ready before the next target popped up!!
 
Depends on how close to the M16 you want to go. Obviously, a 16" carbine is going to handle differently, but will have the same sight picture.

Most 20" AR-15s will closely simulate an M16A2, though they'll be a bit heavier. The reason for this is most postban AR-15 rifles and carbines all have heavy barrels, which are much heaveir than the M16A1 barrel and are even thicker than the M16A2 barrel.

Bushmaster has now released a barrel that is the same as that on an M16A2, though I don't think they put it on any of their rifles.

Frankly, I think the heavy barrels on non-match rifles and especially the 16" carbines are just silly and add unnecessary weight, but they're cheaper to produce.

I went through Army basic training and MOS school (12B) in 1999. WE got exactly three weeks of rifle training, and all of your shooting will be done from prone supported or prone unsupported (or standing in foxhole). We were not taught good gunhandling, such as trigger finger discipline, muzzle discipline, etc. They told everybody to put your nose to the charging handle when firing, which I find patently uncomfortable and never did when I could get away with it, and if there's a problem with the rifle, remember "SPORTS".

Slap up on the magazine, Pull back the charging handle, Observe the chamber, Release the charging handle, Tap the forward assist, Squeeze the trigger.

You'll spend a lot more time hauling an unloaded M16 around with you than you will actually firing it. So if your friend learns ANYTHING from an AR-15, tell him to get an Army field manual and learn to detail clean that sucker.

But remember to clean the barrel from the breach. That's another thing they didn't teach us.

Maybe they do more live-fire training in Infantry school than they do in Combat Engineer school. In basic training, though, it was three weeks.

Now, he'll likely do a lot more live fire shooting once he actually gets to his unit. But basic training is just that; basic.
 
We were not taught good gunhandling, such as trigger finger discipline, muzzle discipline, etc.
Click to expand...

Wow. Things must have changed since I left the Army in 96. In Field Artillery OSUT they were pretty strict about weapons safety. Get caught with your finger on the trigger, picking up your weapon when someone was downrange or pointing your weapon when in any direction except downrange (that included walking up and down the firing line) was enought to earn you a serious chewing out and some push ups. Do it again and they kicked you off the range.

Good Shooting
Red
 
On the range, yes. Weapons up and down range at all times.

Muzzle discipline goes beyond just being on the range, though. During various training exercises and basic combat manuvers, no comment was ever given towards dropping the muzzle of your weapon when someone walks in front of you, or not holding your rifle in such a manner as to be pointing it at someone else. People did this all the time, including me, because we didn't know any better. You'd have a group of guys standing in one spot, talking, holding their M16s. The barrel of one of their M16s would be pointed right at somebody else, things like that. No immediate threat, given that we didn't have any ammunition, but still a VERY bad habit to get into and one that took me awhile to break.

I never heard of "rule three" until I came home.
 
Wow, thanks for the responses guys. Good information here.

Specifically, though, economy is the biggest concern. He's not looking for the perfect simulation, just something that will familiarize him with the workings of the gun/how it fires. A lot of people seem to point to the "save up and get something better" path which, granted, makes a great deal of sense, but is not economically sensible. A guy who's joining the infantry isn't exactly a monetary powerhouse! :D

So any AR-15 looks like it's a winner. What's the least expensive model/version/supplier or whatnot around? If you guys were poor, how would -YOU- work it?

Is there a source of USED ARs? I think a used rifle would be ideal, because it would simulate the beaten-up quality of range rifles (I have a friend who is in the Air Force and he said they made you use "range-specific" rifles that jammed CONSTANTLY) and it would lower the cost of the rifle.

We're located in central Maryland, if it helps.

Thanks again, guys.
 
I've seen a lot of "kits" online after looking around. Now, granted, I have only been looking since yesterday, so I don't know too much about them, but how it appears is that I can buy a AR-15 "kit" from somebody like Olympic Arms for around $450 and then buy a "stripped lower receiver" (and I don't even know what that really is, but the pictures of them are very boring) for about $125 off of a gunbroker auction.

Is this correct? How hard is it to assemble? Would you really end up basically getting a full AR for about $600 instead of $800?

Remember, neither of us know a damn thing about guns, but it sounds like the way to learn, especially if they make you do it in Basic Training anyway.
 
Armscor does make a .22LR that is supposed to mimic an AR. They also make one that looks like an AK-47. They are cheap (under $200). Federal Arms has them I think. http://www.gunsnstuff.net/

May not be what you are looking for, but it is cheap to shoot. I have never seen one in person, so I can't comment on quality. Otherwise they are right and find an inexpensive AR. I have seen used ones go for under $600. Olympic Arms makes one called the "Plinker" which uses a cast lower, but some report good luck with it. It is priced at $499 from distributors.
 
makarov: nice. The plinker sounds like a winner, if anybody knows if it actually behaves like the real thing.
 
Nate, I don't think AR's are illegal in Maryland, but I'm not an expert. There are a lot of AR-15 shooting clubs in Maryland and I don't think those would be around if it was illegal :D
 
ARs are OK in MD fer now

There was a couple of bills to ban them this year but we don't have KKT for a govenor

you and yer buddy should come on out to a Maryland AR15 Shooters day at the AGC outside Balmer in Marriotsville

we will make sure you get range time on a variety of AR15s

http://communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite

you could also buy a raffle ticket or two from Jim Purtillo:
http://www.direct-action.org/#MPFO

MPFO JUNE 2003 RIFLE RAFFLE IS UNDER WAY !

Marylanders for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership announces its latest RIFLE RAFFLE as fundraiser for defense of our Second Amendment rights. The prize package for which tickets are now available is YOUR CHOICE of any one of the following two Fulton Armory products:

"Guardian" -- an AR-15 tactical rifle system, with C-more dot scope.

"Mirage" -- an AR-15 match rifle, for CMP service rifle competition.
Highpower shooters take note!

This exclusive and unique prize package is made available to help the cause because of the generosity of Fulton Armory (with components and services) and the Gun Rack in Burtonsville, MD (providing the service of lawful prize transfer.)

We'll select the winner by random drawing at an event in Maryland in June 2003, or earlier if all 2,000 printed tickets are sold sooner. We kicked butt in the last elections, let's rebuild our war chest to have even broader reach in the current term legislatively!

Each of our previous raffles has been a success: The Fulton Armory "Millenial" AR rifle, the top-accuracy custom McMillan bolt action, the AR-10 .308 rifle and scope, the custom serial numbered MPFO AR-15 tactical rifles and most recently the two-M1 rifle package. We expect this fund raiser to carry on the tradition.

ORDER YOUR TICKETS NOW! Here's how ...

Each ticket goes for a $5 donation to MPFO, the only political action committee in Maryland dedicated to protecting our second amendment rights in state government. You can get your tickets from any MPFO officer, from participating dealers or at our tables at Maryland gun shows.

You can order by mail by sending your donation (made out to MPFO) for the desired number of tickets, along with your name, address and phone number to

MPFO (Attn Mike Fleisher), 11704 ENID DRIVE, POTOMAC MD 20854-3451
 
Just a clarification. The "Plinker" is an AR, made by Olympic Arms. It is probably as cheap as you are going to find an AR.

The .22 I suggested "looks" like an AR, but they are right in that it will have a different manual of arms than an AR. Probably not the best training tool. If your friend just wants to learn how to shoot prior to basic, I would still suggest some type of .22. Maybe the Ruger 10/22. You can really improve your basic skills with a .22 - sight picture, safety, gun handling. Plus they are cheap to shoot. 500 rounds for less than $10. Learn to shoot the AR in the army and let the govt. pay for the ammo.
 
RE: Used AR15's if you look hard and hit all the gun and pawn shops in your area you might (should) be able to find a generic used post ban A2 type rifle in the $550-650 range.

If building a gun from a kit and parts is an option, the cost can be brought down to below $600. I wouldn't recomend doing that for this project however. Due to your friends unfamiliarity with AR's at this point.

Last gun show I went to in Atlanta there were new complete Rock River Arms A2's in the mid $600 range. Well within your budget.

I'd only recomend getting a standard AR15A2 type rifle. It will be as close to the issue M16A2 that your friend will use. AFAIK no one is using the carbine (M4) version in basic/OSUT or AIT.

You could always go over to www.AR15.com and check their bulletin board for a used AR. Should find one there within your budget. Only you will then have to factor in shipping and FFL transfer costs.

Regards,

Rob
 
Wanna study up for the Army?

Any rifle will do for marksmanship training. An M1 Garand or a 1903A3 will have the same sight picture (more or less) as the M16A2. And the M16 will seem easier because of recoil.

Then, find a local NRA shooting coach or clinic. Getting trained by a pro is a faster way to learn. Even a pro who's not making you do pushups.

But for good Army training, just tie a brick to each end of a broomstick, and carry that while running two miles. Do that a few times a week and you'll be good-to-go for basic training.

Regards.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top