Help me identify this old Smith & Wesson!

[mountaindrew]

I justy bought an old smith revolver, It was represented to me as an M&P .38, but I have some doubts.
It Is a K-Frame that has been reblued. It has a 5" pencil barrel with a round, stepped front sight, pinned at the frame. Barrel is marked 38 S&W cartridge and the top has patent dates ranging from '06 to '14
The reason I am not sure it is an old M&P are these.

1. The rear sight notch is a nice square notch as seen on newer guns, while the front sight is a very narrow blade. Also the brrle may be slightly mis-clocked. I suspect a barrel replacement.
2. There is a positive hammer block built into the sideplate (I thought those came mutch later)
3. The cylinder is bored out to .357 length. .357's fit comfortable in all chambers (I did not fire any)

The serial number is 502567, no prefix
the number under the crane is 2362 or maybe 23 62
There is a large "made in USA on the right side in front of the trigger guard
it has a four screw sideplate and a screw under the trigger guard.

What model is this, and any other info would be helpful.

 

[Shade00]

Sounds like an M&P to me, and the serial number puts it production between 1915 and 1942. As for the sights, is the front sight a round blade, or a serrated ramp? I would not suggest firing .357s - the gun would be chambered for .38, and although a .357 cartridge would fit, the cylinder was likely not reamed for it (and likely would not tolerate much .357 use). I believe it's a 5-screw, 5" standard barrel, pre-war M&P. As for the barrel being a replacement, it very well could be; it could have also left the factory slightly canted.

 

[machinisttx]

Sounds like a Model of 1905 4th change Military and Police.

The patent dates on the barrel are correct for that vintage.

If the hammer block is a little spring steel widget that is staked to the sideplate, that is the old style, pre war hammer block and is correct for that gun. The "new" style hammer block was introduced in the early forties, several years after your gun was produced.

As far as the sights, the service sights were a half moon front sight with a notch milled in the top strap. Target sights(rare) were a square cut blade on a raised boss for the front and an adjustable rear that was contoured to the frame and top strap.

.357 ammunition SHOULD NOT fully chamber. I just checked my 4" version of the same gun and it won't. I suggest taking that gun back to wherever you bought it and getting a refund. More than likely, some yokel reamed it out and then fired .357 ammo through it. I would bet on the chambers being bulged or enlarged.

Here is my M1905 4th change/Victory(the serial falls at the end of 4th change production and it has several Victory model features).

 

[Harley Quinn]

Keep the revolver and only fire 38 in it don't put 357 in the cylinder.

Someone might have made it so you could shoot snake shot in it would be my guess and the 357 would hold more shot... Some of us in days of old, did our own snake shot and used gas checks with a slight crimp over them to hold snug... Just a thought.

 

[Old Fuff]

It has a 5" pencil barrel with a round, stepped front sight, pinned at the frame. Barrel is marked 38 S&W cartridge and the top has patent dates ranging from '06 to '14

The barrel would seem to be one made for a World War Two period .38-200 revolver, but the serial number appears to be too early for this. But on the other hand the first revolvers of this kind were assembled using parts that S&W had on hand, so an earlier frame is possible. Otherwise someone rebarreled an earlier .38 Special. To tell, look at the butt for any signs that it might have had a lanyard ring. As a .38-200 revolver it would have had.

S&W switched from a "U" notch to a square one in 1923, so that part of the story doesn't bother me.

If the hammer block is staked into the sideplate that is also O.K. If it is a seperate part then something is wrong.

A lot of .38-200 cylinders (originally chambered in .38 S&W) were crudely rechambered to .38 Special, and I can see where some of these might chamber a .357 Magnum cartridge. Do not, under any circumstances, shoot Magnum ammunition in this revolver!

Beyond this I can't be much help.

To add: If the barrel and cylinder are original to the gun, you should find the serial number stamped on the rear face of the cylinder, and on the bottom of the barrel above the ejector rod.

 

[SaxonPig]

What is a "pencil Barrel?" Is that anything like the STANDARD BARREL?

The serial should be stamped on the underside of the barrel. Match the frame? Sounds like a bubbasmith project gun.

 

[Hutch]

'Pig, you of ALL people should know, a pencil barrel is designed to exactly fit the Eberhardt and Faber #2 lead pencil.

But seriously, when the standard becomes the bull barrel, then the previous standard becomes... well... YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!

Kinda like the early days of the Colt Commander pistol. By definition (then) it was alloy framed. Later, the Combat Commander was introduced, and was so described. As the Combat Commander overtook the Commander in sales, it was necessary to describe the alloy-framed pistols as Lightweight Commanders, while the Combat Commander took over the plain ol' "Commander" name. I bet you knew all that already...

 

[Harley Quinn]

This will help some and then I'll retrieve some more stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Model_10

This is a thread that is here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=386394

Hope it helps some

 

[Bearhands]

"3. The cylinder is bored out to .357 length. .357's fit comfortable in all chambers (I did not fire any"

Cylinders aren't "bored out" for 357, they're LONGER by about 1/10th of an inch.

 

[mountaindrew]

thanks for the replies everyone. I did not know about the number on the barrel, Ill check when I get home. Yes the hammer block is a widget attached to the sideplate. as for the chambers being bored, .357 cartridges will not fit into any of my other .38 revolvers because of the step in the chamber. This one is just slightly longer. and as for the cylender itself being longer, I have compared my .38s and .357s and they are all about the same overall outside length. perhaps a better term is "reamed for .357" as opposed to bored.
Well thanks all for your input. This is to be a desk drawer type hideaway gun fo the home.

 

[machinisttx]

This is to be a desk drawer type hideaway gun fo the home.

If you're intent on keeping it(I certainly wouldn't) keep an empty chamber under the hammer. The old style hammer block wasn't nearly as safe as the new style is.

 

[Old Fuff]

While I am not sure what this particular revolver is, I am sure it was not, and never intended to be a .357 Magnum. Smith & Wesson never made any on their K-frame Military & Police model before World War Two. The .357 cartridge was deliberately lengthened so that it could not be chambered in a .38 Special revolver, and that is part of the purpose for the step in the chamber mentioned before.

As the rechambering might cause problems extracting .38 Special fired cases, and because it is probably wise to load no more then 5 rounds and rest the hammer on an empty chamber; I would consider the revolver in question to be a poor choice to keep as a personal weapon. For use at a shooting range or as a collectable it should do fine.

 

[buttrap]

Sounds like a old .38 MP that got reamed to special to me. Is there much differance between a older vs a new hammer block in the things? they both seem pretty much the same to me. Never have tryed to swap between a V is a K mag but they look like they would swap.

 

[machinisttx]

Buttrap, the old style hammer block had very little engagement surface and IMO depended more on the ledges between the hammer and rebound slide for safety than the very tiny shoulder on the "hammer block". During WW2, a U.S. Navy sailor dropped his M&P/Victory on the deck of his ship which caused it to discharge...the result was a dead Navy man. The War Dept/Ordnance Board ordered S&W to fix the problem, resulting in the new style hammer block which provides a very positive safety mechanism.

The revolver I posted a picture of was made around 1941 and is apparently a VERY early Victory. It still has the old style hammer block. Some guns that were already in service were retrofitted with the new style safety and others were not. IIRC, the change was made about midway through the war, so there are probably quite a few out there that weren't converted.

I haven't examined them side by side to be sure, but I suspect that an old style hammer would have to be modified to work with the new style hammer block. I'm not positive, but the sideplate would probably require modification as well. The rebound slides are also different, in that the new style hammer block requires a peg on the side of the rebound slide to function. The old style was operated by a ramped "wing" on the rear of the hand, so the hand would require replacement as well if one wanted to retrofit a new style hammer block.

 

[Old Fuff]

...the change was made about midway through the war, so there are probably quite a few out there that weren't converted.

Nope, the change wasn't made until early 1945, and the war ended in August 14th of that year.

Smith & Wesson Victory Model revolvers that were made with the new hammer block have a "VS" serial number prefix. Those that were modified usually have an "S" added before or after the "V" prefix.

Hammers do not interchange between the older "long action" guns and post-war "short action" models. The hammer stud, on which the hammer rotates was relocated in the frame.

 

[machinisttx]

You left off the "IIRC" Old Fuff. The SCoS&W lists the change as having been initiated in 1944, but they also claim a square butt 1905 4th change M&P is "rare".

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff has some copies of the original documentation between Smith & Wesson and the U.S. Navy that occured at the time.

The change was incorporated In January, 1945 at serial number V 769,000. The early revolvers had an "S" stamped on the sideplate near the rearmost screw to denote the new safety, but they soon changed to a "VS" serial number prefix.

The Navy was testing prototypes as late as September, 1944; and before S&W could begin production they had to first win approval of their proposed safety, and then tool it for production. The Navy's "Bureau of Red Tape" did not always move quickly.

"IIRC" my foot!