yeah but even at double the speed you still have to lead the deer by at least 8 inches to hit vitals. they are numerous calculators for this, i have one for long range shooting that gives lead and TOF. i just put the numbers in there. but i believe when you do it long hand the mph need to be converted down to fps then the distance moved in the .07-.109 seconds can be calculated.
Hitting a moving deer
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buck460XVR
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This is why you swing thru the deer. In the field you generally do not have time to calculate lead to the closest 1/4 of an inch. If the deer is running, by the time you accurately range the distance, figure the deers speed and adjust for the angle, the deer is gone.
Swinging thru gives you the approximate lead because of reaction time and the continued movement of the gun. Shooting pheasants is a prime example. Swing thru them and shoot and odds are you will get them. Swing thru them and lead them you will shoot in front of them. Stop the gun and aim in front and odds are you will just get tail feathers.
Shooting a running deer is pretty much a guess period. The deer is never moving a predetermined speed nor are they running at a perfect 90 degree angle. It is something that takes good hand eye coordination combined with already good shooting proficiency. It also takes some practice, and again, one is better to error on the side of too much lead than to little. Swinging thru takes practice to get down the speed of your swing thru, but swinging thru at just slightly faster than the animal is moving works well for me......as long as you do not stop the gun when pulling the trigger.
xXxplosive
Member
Dear hunting a farm years ago I met a fella and his wife while taking a break off my stand.
I walked back to my truck and there was a fell and his wife next to their truck so we got to talkin. He was carrying a Rem 12ga. 870 with a 28 " Modified Bbl with vent rib. Atop the rib he had some type of stick on buckhorn open sight for shotgun use....I was carrying a Rem. 1100 12ga. with 2.5 power scope and pair of binoculars around my neck, it was buck season.
So were standin' in the open along a power line right of way where our trucks were parked and parallel to cut corn fields......so out of the corner of my eye I see this deer appear out of the corn and it sees us standing there. It starts to take off runnin' full out, tail up along the furthest corn field, makes a right tun and is now runnin' parallel to us at some ridiculous distance. While were talkin' this fella shoulders his shotgun and starts to take aim....I remember sayin' in disbelief...Aim about 3 feet over his back...next thing I know he fires.....this deer was runnin' full out....then stops short, takes 2 steps and plows into the ground face first....I'm standin' there in total disbelief while the fellas wife is jumpin' up and down' yelling "that's my husband"....I said to her, M'am he didn't pull that trigger, the Lord did as I was stunned....the fella takes off on a hike down there and finally reaches the deer. he yells back,"It's A Buck"....I just shook my head. never ever saw a shot like that in all my years huntin' so I hike down to the deer while counting my paces.......finally reached the deer which was shot through both lungs on a dead run at 232 paces......craziest thing I ever saw. Next day I walk into a local sporting goods store and the guy behind the counter is tellin' this story to another customer...so I listened and then confirmed the shot........I was shocked to see the Rem. slug cleared the deer's body at such a long distance......it was nuts.
I walked back to my truck and there was a fell and his wife next to their truck so we got to talkin. He was carrying a Rem 12ga. 870 with a 28 " Modified Bbl with vent rib. Atop the rib he had some type of stick on buckhorn open sight for shotgun use....I was carrying a Rem. 1100 12ga. with 2.5 power scope and pair of binoculars around my neck, it was buck season.
So were standin' in the open along a power line right of way where our trucks were parked and parallel to cut corn fields......so out of the corner of my eye I see this deer appear out of the corn and it sees us standing there. It starts to take off runnin' full out, tail up along the furthest corn field, makes a right tun and is now runnin' parallel to us at some ridiculous distance. While were talkin' this fella shoulders his shotgun and starts to take aim....I remember sayin' in disbelief...Aim about 3 feet over his back...next thing I know he fires.....this deer was runnin' full out....then stops short, takes 2 steps and plows into the ground face first....I'm standin' there in total disbelief while the fellas wife is jumpin' up and down' yelling "that's my husband"....I said to her, M'am he didn't pull that trigger, the Lord did as I was stunned....the fella takes off on a hike down there and finally reaches the deer. he yells back,"It's A Buck"....I just shook my head. never ever saw a shot like that in all my years huntin' so I hike down to the deer while counting my paces.......finally reached the deer which was shot through both lungs on a dead run at 232 paces......craziest thing I ever saw. Next day I walk into a local sporting goods store and the guy behind the counter is tellin' this story to another customer...so I listened and then confirmed the shot........I was shocked to see the Rem. slug cleared the deer's body at such a long distance......it was nuts.
caribou
Member
Its really not that hard once you know your rifle.
Hunting Caribou is that way, the first shots often at standing animals, the rest are on the move, if not just moving allready.
heres an old vid, you might have easily seen this before here, of a head shot, a Heart shot, a Head shot, all moving, all a bit of 'lead' and swing through. The veriables are target presentaion and the speed they move at when spooked;
Hunting Caribou is that way, the first shots often at standing animals, the rest are on the move, if not just moving allready.
heres an old vid, you might have easily seen this before here, of a head shot, a Heart shot, a Head shot, all moving, all a bit of 'lead' and swing through. The veriables are target presentaion and the speed they move at when spooked;
i understand the "swing threw" method a.k.a. tracking method. but i tend to use the ambush method when i shoot at running animals. i feel with the ambush method i can somewhat control the distance and have a good idea of the lead needed by the time the animal gets to that point i have picked out.. I would say a "swing threw" method is more for a quick snap shot which i will not take at most animals. to each his own.
Here's a good video on the topic. He's a fan of the swing-through method and explains why:
http://vimeo.com/77578939
If you're wondering whether the lad's got the goods to back it up, see for yourself
:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ob0fgc0I7A
http://vimeo.com/77578939
If you're wondering whether the lad's got the goods to back it up, see for yourself
:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ob0fgc0I7A
J-Bar
Member
Thanks for posting those links. Interesting stuff!
short barrel
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If they are crossing right to left, I just mentally calculate where they'll be when I swerve to the left. Usually catch them center of mass with the right side of my front bumper. Sometimes a slight increase in speed is necessary. Just be aware of your state laws and don't exceed the speed limit. Lets be careful out there.
Unlicensed Dremel
Member
Wow, so you come on here and admit that you are just as big as an unethical remedial as the first guy who shot at that deer. Interesting. That's WHY you don't shoot at running game - because YOU don't know how to make the hit. SMDH. Just un-REAL.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
No, UD, it's an effort to try to end the deer's misery. You do the best you can under the circumstances. Any kind of hit might allow a coup de grace. A miss means the deer is no worse off than before.
quartermaster
Member
I will say that I lucked out once and shot a nice 8 point running deer in a field which I am sure is much easier than in the woods. I was doing a lot of skeet shooting at the time and I guess my natural shotgun instinct let me catch up to the deer and as soon as my swing got on the shoulder I pulled the trigger and kept the rifle swinging.
It was probably a 65 yd shot and my scope was on 9 power. My shotgunning skills at the time definitely lead to my success. It was one of the largest 8 pointers that I have ever shot. Maybe I shouldn't have taken the shot (I might not at this point in my life), but I was younger and more excitable then.
The gun should always keep swinging at any moving target.
It was probably a 65 yd shot and my scope was on 9 power. My shotgunning skills at the time definitely lead to my success. It was one of the largest 8 pointers that I have ever shot. Maybe I shouldn't have taken the shot (I might not at this point in my life), but I was younger and more excitable then.
The gun should always keep swinging at any moving target.
longspurr
Member
During our annual deer sight in days we operate a Running Deer target. 60 yards away and crosses a 15-18 yard opening. We turn the target around and send it back the other way.
Just on what I saw, perhaps 1/3 of the folks got a chest hit. About an equal # were misses or gut hits. A good bolt gunner could get off 2 shots per direction.
The guys with AR's did better, perhaps because they shoot more than the once a year deer guys. Some of the AR guys really pounded the target – think 10 shots. Not all were good hits, but some were.
Just on what I saw, perhaps 1/3 of the folks got a chest hit. About an equal # were misses or gut hits. A good bolt gunner could get off 2 shots per direction.
The guys with AR's did better, perhaps because they shoot more than the once a year deer guys. Some of the AR guys really pounded the target – think 10 shots. Not all were good hits, but some were.
Here are figures for my gun. This is no wind, level ground, and on a strait 90 degree angle from shot. to get this all you do is convert the MPH to FPS and take that times the TOF of the projectile also in FPS.
.308 Win
Deer Running 20 MPH
165 grain bullet @ 2600fps Distance
.........l Lead
Yards l Inches l feet l Deer Lengths (Approximate)
100 l 44" l 3.5' l 1
200 l 88" l 7.3' l 2
300 l 137" l 11.5' l 3
400 l 190" l 16' l 4
Deer Running 30 MPH
165 grain bullet @ 2600fps Distance
.........l Lead
Yards l Inches l feet l Deer Lengths (Approximate)
100 l 64" l 5.3' l 1.5
200 l 132" l 11.3' l 3.0
300 l 205" l 17' l 4.5
400 l 284" l 23.5' l 6
.308 Win
Deer Running 20 MPH
165 grain bullet @ 2600fps Distance
.........l Lead
Yards l Inches l feet l Deer Lengths (Approximate)
100 l 44" l 3.5' l 1
200 l 88" l 7.3' l 2
300 l 137" l 11.5' l 3
400 l 190" l 16' l 4
Deer Running 30 MPH
165 grain bullet @ 2600fps Distance
.........l Lead
Yards l Inches l feet l Deer Lengths (Approximate)
100 l 64" l 5.3' l 1.5
200 l 132" l 11.3' l 3.0
300 l 205" l 17' l 4.5
400 l 284" l 23.5' l 6
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coloradokevin
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Movers are really pretty tough. It's easier to hit a moving target that is moving directly toward or directly away from you. A target moving laterally requires significant and steady movement on your part.
The difficulties of making such a shot depend on a number of issues, and these issues may behave in opposition to each other. At close range a moving target is going to require more swift and immediate movement on your part, over a greater arc. At long distances you'll be making less physical movement on your end, but you'll need to consider leading or "ambushing" the target by quite a bit (aiming for where the target is going to be when your bullet arrives at that distance).
At 70 yards you aren't going to need very much lead on a deer with a high velocity rifle round, at 400 yards you are. Frankly, the long distance lead is going to be VERY tough to pull off successfully in field conditions, especially when you consider that target speed is a guess. Quick math for my deer rifle gives a lead of about 2 feet at that 70 yard distance, and 18 feet at the 400 yard range. A bullet leaving the muzzle at 2710 feet per second will cover 70 yards in about 0.08 seconds, and 400 yards in about 0.49 seconds. Those lead figures are with an assumption that the deer is crossing perpendicularly in front of you at about 25 mph at a run. Clearly you won't be making calculations like this in field conditions, so you need to practice engaging moving targets are various speeds and distances (within the scope of what you're trying to accomplish).
Anyway, trying to track a moving target with a magnified optic can be very tough. Your best bet in this case is to keep your magnification dialed down to its lowest practical level. When I'm in the woods hunting I keep my rifle dialed to 3x. If a quick shot is needed I'll have a wider field of view, and an easier time acquiring the target. On the other hand, if the target is far enough away that I want 10x or higher magnification, I will have time to adjust up for those longer shots.
Anyway, that's my take on the issue.
I don't see his question that way. He was asking about a specific instance in which he was trying to put down a wounded animal. That's a perfectly acceptable time to take such a risky shot.
Overall I agree with your idea that you should take shots at stationary big game animals under most circumstances. Moving targets are fun to practice at the range and in competition. And, in a combat situation it's sometimes worthwhile to take these shots, too. In the world of ethical hunting I'd venture a guess at saying 98% of hunters have no business shooting at a running deer.
Hunting is much like fishing: lots of grand stories are told around the campfire, and some of them are true. Most of the crazy ones were luck, and a select few people have the skills to reliably make the odd shots. Long range shooting is what I do for fun. It's how I spend 90% of my non-professional range time. As such, I've encountered quite a few stories over the years that simply don't make sense (ex: a coworker who claimed to hit a coyote at a dead run, off-hand, using his .30-06 and Kentucky windage, at 880 yards). I've also encountered quite a few hunters who are not skilled riflemen, and really only shoot 5-10 "practice" rounds per year. The "fish" stories create problems when they start to convince honest hunters that ridiculous shots are possible, if not normal.
Now, admittedly, there's a big difference between taking a shot at a deer you jump at close range in dense vegetation and taking a shot at a running deer that is 400 yards away across a bean field.
Regardless, I don't think the OP was asking this question with the intention of doing anything unethical.
The difficulties of making such a shot depend on a number of issues, and these issues may behave in opposition to each other. At close range a moving target is going to require more swift and immediate movement on your part, over a greater arc. At long distances you'll be making less physical movement on your end, but you'll need to consider leading or "ambushing" the target by quite a bit (aiming for where the target is going to be when your bullet arrives at that distance).
At 70 yards you aren't going to need very much lead on a deer with a high velocity rifle round, at 400 yards you are. Frankly, the long distance lead is going to be VERY tough to pull off successfully in field conditions, especially when you consider that target speed is a guess. Quick math for my deer rifle gives a lead of about 2 feet at that 70 yard distance, and 18 feet at the 400 yard range. A bullet leaving the muzzle at 2710 feet per second will cover 70 yards in about 0.08 seconds, and 400 yards in about 0.49 seconds. Those lead figures are with an assumption that the deer is crossing perpendicularly in front of you at about 25 mph at a run. Clearly you won't be making calculations like this in field conditions, so you need to practice engaging moving targets are various speeds and distances (within the scope of what you're trying to accomplish).
Anyway, trying to track a moving target with a magnified optic can be very tough. Your best bet in this case is to keep your magnification dialed down to its lowest practical level. When I'm in the woods hunting I keep my rifle dialed to 3x. If a quick shot is needed I'll have a wider field of view, and an easier time acquiring the target. On the other hand, if the target is far enough away that I want 10x or higher magnification, I will have time to adjust up for those longer shots.
Anyway, that's my take on the issue.
I don't see his question that way. He was asking about a specific instance in which he was trying to put down a wounded animal. That's a perfectly acceptable time to take such a risky shot.
Overall I agree with your idea that you should take shots at stationary big game animals under most circumstances. Moving targets are fun to practice at the range and in competition. And, in a combat situation it's sometimes worthwhile to take these shots, too. In the world of ethical hunting I'd venture a guess at saying 98% of hunters have no business shooting at a running deer.
Hunting is much like fishing: lots of grand stories are told around the campfire, and some of them are true. Most of the crazy ones were luck, and a select few people have the skills to reliably make the odd shots. Long range shooting is what I do for fun. It's how I spend 90% of my non-professional range time. As such, I've encountered quite a few stories over the years that simply don't make sense (ex: a coworker who claimed to hit a coyote at a dead run, off-hand, using his .30-06 and Kentucky windage, at 880 yards). I've also encountered quite a few hunters who are not skilled riflemen, and really only shoot 5-10 "practice" rounds per year. The "fish" stories create problems when they start to convince honest hunters that ridiculous shots are possible, if not normal.
Now, admittedly, there's a big difference between taking a shot at a deer you jump at close range in dense vegetation and taking a shot at a running deer that is 400 yards away across a bean field.
Regardless, I don't think the OP was asking this question with the intention of doing anything unethical.
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caribou
Member
With practice, hitting moving animals isnt very hard.
There is the 3 aspects of riflemanship, the rifle, the ammo , the shooter...all very complex and needing to be consitant. When all three come together, hits are made.
Taking a moving shot at an already wounded animal is very acceptable, and better than a sure loss.....if you try, you just might make the hit, with out trying, you definitely wont make the hit.
There is the 3 aspects of riflemanship, the rifle, the ammo , the shooter...all very complex and needing to be consitant. When all three come together, hits are made.
Taking a moving shot at an already wounded animal is very acceptable, and better than a sure loss.....if you try, you just might make the hit, with out trying, you definitely wont make the hit.
Why so much attitude? I was taught one makes an effort to put down a wounded animal whenever possible. This qualifies as one of those situations. Making an effort, whether successful or not, of ending an animals suffering is something to be APPLAUDED, not condemned. Save the misplaced rage, as this guy was doing exactly what most ethical hunters would do in such a situation. I guess I'd be MORE upset at someone who let an obviously wounded deer continue to suffer rather than doing the humane thing to so in that circumstance.
Exactly. I'm not sure if recent (a couple of decades') overly PC trend has affected some people, but overemphasizing a perfect shot has become a fad that has even clouded common sense. Hunting is hunting, there's no such thing as guaranteed perfect shot and whenever you decide to shorten the food chain on your part by hunting game, you always risk wounding an animal. Always. Every ethical hunter does his or her best to avoid causing unnecessary pain, but once that has happened, it's one's duty as a hunter to end it as quickly as possible, using whatever means it takes. Shooting a running animal is just one very valid and ethical method to accomplish that.
I hate it when some people declare that they always kill the animal with the first shot. That might happen, but it's not guaranteed. Never, unless you're talking about coup de grace. Shooting a running animal is a matter of odds, just like any game shot, and it's up to an individual hunter to determine whether the odds are good enough. When the animal is already wounded, a hunter is obliged to not just to take the shot but keep shooting until the animal is down. No exceptions.
I wound have taken that shot if the deer was wounded, that is the most ethical thing to do in that situation.Wow, so you come on here and admit that you are just as big as an unethical remedial as the first guy who shot at that deer. Interesting. That's WHY you don't shoot at running game - because YOU don't know how to make the hit. SMDH. Just un-REAL.
I posted the information of the lead distance as a reference, and do not suggest someone taking a shot at a moving deer if it is at all possible. However, half of my coyote hunting and rabbit hunting require shots at moving targets. In the right conditions i.e. flat wheat/milo field, speed, and comfortable angle, I have taken shots at running deer with success. I have taken ethical shots at wounded deer from other hunters because of walk-in hunting river ground and out of state weekend warriors next to my ground. I have made bad shots on deer, mostly in my first few years of my hunting. My bad shots oddly enough were at stationary deer, when inexperience and nerves got the best of me.: Side note not to get off track but my poorly placed shots were from transitioning from .22lr to a high power and not understanding the wind and drop difference.: This year I made a shot on a running deer with ethical hunting in mind, me and a friend decided to bow hunt this year, i have a post on the deer i took this year. I have shot a bow for years and been close to deer and taken them close with a blackhawk in .45 Colt. My friend has taken deer with rifles for years, but never at close range and i knew that would get his heart racing when they are 5 yards away. So we decided it best to wait for rifle season for him in-case a bad shot was made from him trying to take a deer with a bow. Our bow and rifle seasons go on at the same time for 10 days. It happened, a bad shot on a deer, High and back from vitals. We watched the deer for 10-15 seconds and i knew from experience and watching the arrow that it was not going down. I grabbed my 94AE in .45 Colt and the deer spotted me and made a run for it, i made a shot and got him in the front shoulder about 85 yards away. talk about leading a deer, that 260 grain is coming out of that gun at like 1650FPS i can see the lead when i close my eyes, a touch over 2 deer lead dead fast run at a close to 90 degree angle and i was about 6 inches higher than i would like to be. When we recovered the deer the arrow just missed the lungs and the deer would have gotten away and suffered. So a perfect example of ethical and practical running shot on game animals. do i drive canyons and run them out to shoot NO, do i have running shot while hunting, Yes. Example of experience with the .45 colt lever action, 10K plus rounds out of gun from my hands, at least 350 a month, and at my range all types of contests with family and a couple friends i deem safe enough with a firearm to shoot with. I would not recommend anyone that goes out and shoots less that 2k a year worth of rounds ever take a running shot unless trying to be ethical on wounded animals.
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