How did the opinion of firearms get to where it is today?

[jad0110]

The wussification of America is one factor. Most gen-Y guys I know can't even change their own oil, so chances are they are going to "sub-out" their protection/security to other people they don't even know as well. We shouldn't really be surprised.

Honestly though, if we have anyone to blame it is gunowners themselves. We are a divided lot. Just the other day I was talking to a guy that seemed 100%+ pro RKBA. He served in the Marines, has a sizeable gun collection, is an active shooter, etc. But he then said that he sees no practical need for "assault rifles" and .50 cal Barretts, and that therefore they should be banned. "You can't use an AK-47 or .50 for hunting!"

Yeah, we are our own worst enemy.

 

[22-rimfire]

That opinion is very common which is why gun owners will loose when it comes to black rifles. Even gun owners are divided on the subject regardless of whether or not that agrees with the most vocal supporters of the second amendment.

Frankly, I could easily see them classified in the same fashion as Clase III weapons are now. They won't get outlawed.

Not my view, but I have heard it many times.

 

[General Geoff]

Two things:

JFK

MLK Jr.


Why do you think the 1968 GCA was drafted and signed into law?

 

[Deanimator]

Fear of firearms is just a symptom. The underlying reality is that personal autonomy is what's under attack. The very idea that you can be responsible for your own well-being is considered evil by some.

For a person who believes that the state is the alpha and omega of all things, and that everyone must look to the state for everything in life, the idea that one can defend oneself independent of the state and its hirelings is a frightening concept. That firearms allows one to be thusly independent of the state is quintessentially terrifying for those who depend upon the state for everything.

Such sheep realize that if you have fangs and claws, the lions have a greater statistical chance of selecting THEM instead. Your opting out of the herd mentality leaves them to crowd into the center of a smaller herd, and they don't like it one bit.

The coward encourages cowardice in others so that his own cowardice is no longer remarkable.

 

[22-rimfire]

This may be helpful to those who want to do some reading on the subject.

http://hematite.com/dragon/senaterpt.html

 

[DRYHUMOR]

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that as a nation, as time goes on, there are less and less people that genuinely know anything.

Common sense has gone to the wayside, special interests abound, individual rights are being eroded.

It's somewhat like Jay Leno's "man on the street" interveiws. Those were fairly easy questions asked of passersby. God they look stupid. No idea of our country's history, developement, government, economy, etc, etc, etc.

The only truth people think they know is what the media, internet, or Sally next door tells them.

It's a crying shame.

 

[kairo]

Greetings everybody. I travel the web on some other well known gun sites, amongst other things. I peruse THR every now and then, but this tread inclined me to jump in.

I think the opinion of firearms is still alive and thriving in the minds of the common sense, hard working, self supporting man.

However, the propaganda and fear mongering of anti-gun types is even instilled in folks like myself.
Little background:
I grew up hunting, fishing, and lived on property in Washington state. We were allowed to keep our BB guns in our rooms, and use them at our discretion (since my brother and I were about 8 years old) PROVIDED only that we did not shoot at people, property, or kill anything we weren't prepared to eat. I learned very early on that the last rule was very enforceable when I was forced to eat a Robin I sniped from a tree.
All of that not withstanding, my dad and grandpa were avid hunters--still are to this day. They never had handguns, AR's or "cool" guns. Just the gamut of hunting rifles and myriads of shotguns.

When I turned 20, I figured out I would be able to buy a pistol the following year, and found myself all over the internet finding out which one I should like to have. My folks didn't particularly agree with my new love of weaponry, but they didn't forbid it in any way.
I got my dad to attend my CCW class with me, even though he has no intention of ever carrying a firearm, and I got my CCW permit 10 days after I turned 21. (My birthday gift from them was a Ruger p89) I've been carrying routinely ever since (I'm now 23).

To my family, guns have always been a means of hunting and mild recreation. Self defense never entered into the equation.

I, myself, don't even carry some days. Just don't feel the need to. However, yesterday, my bank I frequent was held up at "perceived" gun point. My .38 sits here now on my desk--I have a cool boss who doesn't mind if we carry at work, provided we leave the firearms in our locked desks when in the office.

Even now, being young and starting on my career, I don't recreate like I did when I was growing up. I haven't shot a duck in years, I only made it dove hunting a handful of times last season, and my last big game kill was an antelope last october on a trip my grandfather and I took.

Even on those of us who grew up with powder in their blood are losing their heritage to the modern day fast paced world.
I try to keep my hobby alive as best I can. I buy and sell a lot of guns, go shooting regularly, and my girlfriend now has my trusty p89 on her side of the bed. I have Evil Black's, concealable handguns, and still the hunting rifles and shotguns which every man should have.

One thing I've learned throughout the years, is that it's much easier to become complacent than it is to take a stand against something you believe in. I have more or less adopted an attitude of "I'll keep my guns, locked in my safe, with my ammo" but I haven't made any effort to promote my hobbies. It's just easier to sit back and hold onto the things you have, rather than fight for what may come. Heck, It's hard enough to catch a half our of a ball game after work and classes. What time do I have to write a letter to a congressman?

The answer should be, as it always has been for those who made something of this country: There is always be time. Freedoms aren't held on the whims of complacency. It's time for people like myself to break out of the mold of structured society, and stand up for what we believe in, and what we want to pass down to our children.

Society is definitely changing, and if it can affect someone like me, who loves guns as much as anything else on this earth. . .Then the lesser amongst us have no chance.

Regards.

 

[jad0110]

Deaminator,

Your post is very eloquently written, and I hate to say it, very true. The sheep dog reminds the sheep that their are wolves out there ready to pounce, and they don't like that at all.

kairo,

First off, welcome to THR!

Second, you make many excellent points. You ought to have spoken up sooner! We need thoughtful individuals like yourself posting your thoughts on the importance of RKBA.

To my family, guns have always been a means of hunting and mild recreation. Self defense never entered into the equation.

Sadly, that is all the 2nd amendment means to a lot of people these days. "If it can't be used for hunting, then it should be outlawed." The 2nd amendment isn't even about self defense, it is the ULTIMATE check and balance against the state. As stated in an earlier post, I had a run in with a guy who is pro gun except for "military assault rifles" for which he didn't see a "legitimate sporting purpose." I responded by saying that we must draw the line HERE AND NOW, no more compromises ... because Fedzilla won't stop at EBRs. He thought about it for a moment, and acknowledged that I did have a point. Funny thing is he apparently doesn't consider the Springfield M1A Socoom an EBR . I'm pretty sure Fedzilla does.

Beyond the 2nd amendment, too many Americans think their rights are "granted", "provided" or "given" to them by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. This is an attidude that each and everyone of us must fight against. Maybe it is too late, but I for one don't care to throw my hands up in the air and say "it can't be done." In my college days I challenged such a person by stating, "So if you were the only person left on Earth, I guess you'd be screwed, as there would be no State to give rights to you."

One thing I've learned throughout the years, is that it's much easier to become complacent than it is to take a stand against something you believe in. I have more or less adopted an attitude of "I'll keep my guns, locked in my safe, with my ammo" but I haven't made any effort to promote my hobbies. It's just easier to sit back and hold onto the things you have, rather than fight for what may come.

True. But taking out new shooters who may not have a strong opinion either way is sooo much fun! If all of us here on THR took out just one new person per year and introduced them to RKBA, even if they didn't end up buying a firearm, we would be in a better position in the long run.

 

[Librarian]

I often recommend the publications of Yale's Cultural Cognition Project.

Try the Gun Risk Perceptions page; lots of papers there.

Here's where they're going with the project:

Americans have differing views on everything from gun control, to domestic terrorism, to global warming. But scholars say we don’t base these positions solely on facts.

In a study released in September, GW Law Professor Donald Braman, Yale Law Professor Dan Kahan, and other research scholars say that our cultural values and the leaders we perceive as having similar cultural values play major roles in how we react to societal risks.

This psychological tendency, called “cultural cognition,” allows individuals to credit or dismiss information depending on whether it supports or threatens one’s cultural perceptions, the researchers say.

Google Dan Kahan, Donald Braman; they have a lot to say that tends to explain much of the current perception.

Some people - for example, Dave Mustard (of Lott-Mustard fame) have offered useful criticism. Lott does, too.

But one of the themes is that many people want to live in a world without violence, and guns represent only violence to them. With somewhat 'magical' thinking, they conclude 'if only guns would go away, we'd all live in peace'. Complete nonsense, of course, but as Braman says

"Once people are on the defensive, they are very good at screening out facts that are contrary to their cultural commitments. It is a form of cognitive self-defense."

 

[MT GUNNY]

Thanks 22 Rimfire that was Insightful.
Now I wonder how many more times we will have the Supreme Court tell us it is an Individual Right.

After reading that I now Understand why some gun owners see the 2Amendment as there CCP so on and so forth. There view is not so Radical anymore!

 

[wep45]

here is one reason........http://kdka.com/topstories/hunter.shoots.child.2.867264.html

here is another......http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/accident-center.html

how about this........http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/08/national/main3807394.shtml

its what the public reads and hears everyday

 

[Ignition Override]

Excuse the double-entry. Fingers graze buttons and do things which are far beyond my understanding.

 

[Ignition Override]

As for some crime, years ago the 'Dutch' decided to tolerate marijuana so that they could use manpower on more serious drugs. They also bring in lots of tax money from it. Never mind the best bike route network in the world, to keep those tall, slender, low-fat babes in shape on rollerblades and fietser.

You guys/gals make excellent points.
Whe chatting with somebody about their comment as to "why anybody needs an AK-47...". my debating skills are not too good.

Should we ask what practical ideas can strengthen "gun control for criminals", instead of reminding them that almost all criminals can easily hide a handgun much easier until the last second, and seldom use an AK in this country (or so it appears)?
They think that we are just gun nuts, and see no reason why an AK could be banned, but aren't concerned about Ruger Minis or SKS.
I reminded somebody in my family that a much friendlier-looking Mini 30 could be just as deadly as an AK, with the right magazines, so maybe high-capacity and brutal, no-nonsense lookss are major issues, as Hollywood only puts them in the hands of bag guys (plus the classic non-fiction West Hollywood shoot-out)?

My Dad flew over 22 years in the ANG/AFRES, even logged about 100 hours on each round-trip cargo mission to Saigon in the old C-124 "Shaky", but sees no practical reason for an AK. Longer-range transport flight crews are often completely detached from combat, except for a hole here and there (maybe not a fuel or booster hydraulic system...).
Pardon my frank admission, but living many years in cities, having only the old barely-touched .22, I could see no practical use for an AK-47 and was neutral about the NRA.
I was quite wrong and grossly ignorant.

Mini 14, 30, SKS, MN 44s. A diet high in carbines promotes an active lifestyle.
A second SKS or a first Saiga or AK would be really nice if my "Admin. Officer" could see justification for another plinker.

 

[Dwight45]

I think RCModel has made a good point. "Liberal" does not necesarrily mean anti-gun. I know a lot of lliberal people who respect my choice to have firearms for defense and recreation, even a couple who enjoy shooting with me. And I think all the liberal-bashing makes for us gun-people a lot more opponents than supporters. If we want support, we need to be nice, not nasty like Mr. Limbaugh.

As I see it, the main difference between liberalism and conservatism is over the tax system, not guns. Liberals believe people are obliged to help each other a little, and that the wealthy should have to pay a slightly larger percentage of their income in taxes than poorer people. We may not agree with this, but that doesn't make us mortal enemies.

Mr. Obama has much more important issues to worry about than our guns. Our economy is collapsing, millions of jobs are being lost, our auto companies are on the verge of bankrupcy, the world's oil supply is running out, polar ice caps are melting, we're spending billions a week on a useless war in Iraq, the whole world hates our guts, and there are probably a few more issues that don't come to mind just now. I'll bet the gun issue is about number 400 on Mr. Obama's priority list.

 

[UhKlem]

After the assassinations of ML King and Senator Kennedy it seems that the toy companies were shamed into pulling realistic or militaristic toy guns from their lines. So the following generation of boys were denied formative play behaviors. A view of Sears Roebuck catalogs prior to then had more extensive sections of toy and real guns prior to those events. Of course GCA of 1968 also resulting in a chilling of trade in guns.

The cultures of predominant media, education, and of course the state professions of planning, law enforcement, and public health are also predisposed to disdain individual self defense. The experts all agree: just give the thugs what they want and you won't get hurt. Of course, the biggest thug robs us blind with every paycheck. So creating dependency empowers all of these groups that get to sway the culture.

 

[Librarian]

After the assassinations of ML King and Senator Kennedy it seems that the toy companies were shamed into pulling realistic or militaristic toy guns from their lines. So the following generation of boys were denied formative play behaviors. A view of Sears Roebuck catalogs prior to then had more extensive sections of toy and real guns prior to those events.

I recall an episode of Disney, then sponsored by Mattel; a bunch of 8 and 9 year old boys were issued brand new cap-gun versions of an M3 "grease gun". They were taken on the jungle cruise ride, and the whole boat opened up on the hippo that rises up to 'threaten' the riders.

Kind of unlikely we'll see such a thing again.