thisisoriginal
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lol, I did mean overkill as in taking up a lot of time. But hey, to each his own!
How many rounds before cleaning barrel?
- Thread starter BluegrassDan
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R.W.Dale
Member
we store them properly rather than relying on slathering things down with oil.
All my firearms reside in a climate controlled room in a safe. Never once have I had a rust issue. Since the advent on non corrosive priming the clean every time mantra has become merely an OCD throwback from a much EARLIER time. As evidenced by the fact that the only pitted bores I see are on Milsurps, OLD sporting arms and IFfound on a more modern gun you'll have pitting on the OUTSIDE of the gun to match the bore. (read poor storage)
How do you compulsive cleaners get a rifle to shoot good when just about the time the bore gets fouled enough for accuracy to settle in and become predictable YOU CLEAN IT?
About 45 years ago, we never cleaned our varmint rifle bores until after the spring/summer woodchuck season.
Unfortunately, I forgot to clean it then and ruined a perfectly good .22-250 barrel. My center-fire bores always get at least a patch with Break-Free after even one shot. After two shots or more, a patch with bore cleaner, a clean bore brush, and bore cleaner on patches until they come out relatively clean, then a dry patch, and a Break-Free patch for storage.
Twenty-two LR bores actually never need to be cleaned. The wax on every round made will protect them as well or better than any oil. The only time I clean mine is when accuracy drops off from leading near the chamber. Not all LRs lead up the leade, but many do.
Unfortunately, I forgot to clean it then and ruined a perfectly good .22-250 barrel. My center-fire bores always get at least a patch with Break-Free after even one shot. After two shots or more, a patch with bore cleaner, a clean bore brush, and bore cleaner on patches until they come out relatively clean, then a dry patch, and a Break-Free patch for storage.
Twenty-two LR bores actually never need to be cleaned. The wax on every round made will protect them as well or better than any oil. The only time I clean mine is when accuracy drops off from leading near the chamber. Not all LRs lead up the leade, but many do.
Tuckerp229
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In November 2009 the the NRA Rifleman magazine page 66-69 and 92 there was an extensive article discussing rifle barrel cleaning and optimal barrel break in procedure. The findings blew away all my suppositions, habits and classic gun lore. I could not or would not get my arms around their conclusions. Be advised their article did not cover the use of corrosive ammo nor was it about cleaning the action.
First in the area of bore cleaning they discovered there was no reason to clean a gun after each trip to the range or even after many 100's, 300-500 rounds fired and to quote Kevin Thomas of Sierra bullet factory, one barrel they used shot its best groups from 250 to 300 rounds! Ahem! In fact they discovered that many rifles "needed" fouling shots to shoot their best groups and that more damage was done by incorrect or overcleaning than by the number of shots fired between cleanings.
Secondly, the other related Holy Grail of gunlore is the fabled "barrel Break in". After speaking with many barrel and rifle manufacturers and running their own tests they concluded that barrel break in is a myth and that the primary reason barrel companies offer "a procedure" to reduce or eliminate time wasted fielding phone calls and e-mails by nervous nellies wanting to have a break in procedure and or to argue with them about various aspects of this or that break in method. All of this takes much time and wastes much money for them. Printing an approved method and referring their customers to this method saves them bank.
Does this information ruffle your feathers like it does mine?
First in the area of bore cleaning they discovered there was no reason to clean a gun after each trip to the range or even after many 100's, 300-500 rounds fired and to quote Kevin Thomas of Sierra bullet factory, one barrel they used shot its best groups from 250 to 300 rounds! Ahem! In fact they discovered that many rifles "needed" fouling shots to shoot their best groups and that more damage was done by incorrect or overcleaning than by the number of shots fired between cleanings.
Secondly, the other related Holy Grail of gunlore is the fabled "barrel Break in". After speaking with many barrel and rifle manufacturers and running their own tests they concluded that barrel break in is a myth and that the primary reason barrel companies offer "a procedure" to reduce or eliminate time wasted fielding phone calls and e-mails by nervous nellies wanting to have a break in procedure and or to argue with them about various aspects of this or that break in method. All of this takes much time and wastes much money for them. Printing an approved method and referring their customers to this method saves them bank.
Does this information ruffle your feathers like it does mine?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Nope, it just confirms what I've believed and practiced for years. Unfortunately, old myths die hard.
BluegrassDan
Member
This is exactly why I posed the question. Answers all across the spectrum.
It is certainly a science and an art.
So, I'm confident that any of the above can produce positive results. I still have drawn no conclusion.
It is certainly a science and an art.
So, I'm confident that any of the above can produce positive results. I still have drawn no conclusion.
I usually go about 6mos to a year between cleaning my AR15s. I really wanted to shoot my new precision bolt gun without ever cleaning it. Unfortunately, copper fouling increased to the point i was having pressure problems, so i have to clean it regularly. usually about every 100 rnds.
if you check the web pages of gunsmiths and barrel makers, you will probably find most but not all still advocate break in. (and I mean, explain why it is necessary, as opposed to just offering a procedure for people who want to do it)
Please read Krieger's explanation http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm
Lilja's explanation http://riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
bartlein's advice http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/BreakInCleaning.htm
shilen's thoughts http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question10
to my knowledge the late gale mcmillan is about the only guy who thinks break-in is a scam.
i would like to see the sources for that Rifleman article.
if you check the web pages of gunsmiths and barrel makers, you will probably find most but not all still advocate break in. (and I mean, explain why it is necessary, as opposed to just offering a procedure for people who want to do it)
Please read Krieger's explanation http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm
Lilja's explanation http://riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm
bartlein's advice http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/BreakInCleaning.htm
shilen's thoughts http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question10
to my knowledge the late gale mcmillan is about the only guy who thinks break-in is a scam.
i would like to see the sources for that Rifleman article.
kaferhaus
Member
you failed to mention that he went right back to cleaning them every 50rds.... That was a one time thing he did for "kicks"
And the bullet makers aren't shooting benchrest groups during their testing either.... they're checking pressure and if they stumble onto a good load for their barrel they note it as a possible accuracy load for publication...
I know exactly where my cold bore shot will hit; exactly! Just as I know where the fouled bore will.
Why berate people for maintaining their firearms in the manner they choose? You have "climate controlled room in a safe." If that is how you want to do it, good for you! If I want to I take a few minutes to clean my barrel; (which cleans-up quickly from proper break-in procedure,) why is this a problem for you?
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Hangingrock
Member
That’s not necessarily true in all aspects. The manufacture has quality control procedures thus testing samples from production lots.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I think that 99% of the time, in discussions on this very subject, the personal insults come from the overcleaning crowd. Don't think I've been in a discussion on this yet where I wasn't called lazy and/or stupid. Even though, unlike the opposition, I have done it both ways.
redbullitt
Member
As of today I am just under 600 on my 308. Still shoots like a champ. Ill run an oil patch down the bore if its going to get a vacation in the safe for a while, but other than that I havent done any scrubbing etc.
The weapon will tell you if it really needs cleaned like that IMHO. Now, getting grit out of the action or trigger mechanism is something else entirely.
Either way I suppose with the cleaning. As long as you are happy with how the rifle shoots, then good on you.
I will say that I clean my carry piece very regularly (most handguns as well).
The weapon will tell you if it really needs cleaned like that IMHO. Now, getting grit out of the action or trigger mechanism is something else entirely.
Either way I suppose with the cleaning. As long as you are happy with how the rifle shoots, then good on you.
I will say that I clean my carry piece very regularly (most handguns as well).
R.W.Dale
Member
Same here.
I too used to compulsively clean anytime a firearm came back into the house. But after awhile a read, learned and observed that in doing so I was taking two accuracy steps forward and then three back. Another point is my guns don't sit long enough without being shot for humidity to come into play with the bore, guns that do get put up long term get a patch saturated in old school breakfree before storage (no scrubbing).
If my above comments offendeth thine eyes then my apologies are given, it just ruffled my feathers when the earlier posts accused folks like me of not caring for my junk properly.
I am really quite anal about clean firearms. Maybe it was the military, but man I can't stand it if I know I have any dirty firearm in my safe.....Crazy I know. OCD perhaps. I know I enjoy cleaning, upgrading or tinkering almost as much as shooting them.
Tuckerp229
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Quote:
Kevin Thomas of Sierra bullet factory, one barrel they used shot its best groups from 250 to 300 rounds! Ahem!
you failed to mention that he went right back to cleaning them every 50rds.... That was a one time thing he did for "kicks"
Remember these revelations did not sit easy with me either.
No I didn't quote that they went back to cleaning nor did I copy and paste the whole article. I did however leave complete footnotes so anyone interested could read for themselves.
as for them going back to the 50 rounds and clean system, this does not eliminate the fact that they had great results even when they did not..something I would never have believed.
To further bend everyone's noodle again, I ran across another article this week, that pertains to this subject. It is the November issue of Guns and ammo page 52. The article is discussing the features of the fine LWRC but get a load of the opening paragraph! 12,000 rounds fired without cleaning-then a small spring broke and after replacing they shot another 7,000 rounds and then "performed their first precision shooting evaluations!!!!" Holy Hanna thems a few more rounds then I have let go between cleanings.
Any way this is all very interesting to me and I have this last year begun to reduce my cleaning frequency and instead monitor my reloading recipes and barrel temp with the extra time. My downrange bullet performance has improved dramatically.
Kevin Thomas of Sierra bullet factory, one barrel they used shot its best groups from 250 to 300 rounds! Ahem!
you failed to mention that he went right back to cleaning them every 50rds.... That was a one time thing he did for "kicks"
Remember these revelations did not sit easy with me either.
No I didn't quote that they went back to cleaning nor did I copy and paste the whole article. I did however leave complete footnotes so anyone interested could read for themselves.
as for them going back to the 50 rounds and clean system, this does not eliminate the fact that they had great results even when they did not..something I would never have believed.
To further bend everyone's noodle again, I ran across another article this week, that pertains to this subject. It is the November issue of Guns and ammo page 52. The article is discussing the features of the fine LWRC but get a load of the opening paragraph! 12,000 rounds fired without cleaning-then a small spring broke and after replacing they shot another 7,000 rounds and then "performed their first precision shooting evaluations!!!!" Holy Hanna thems a few more rounds then I have let go between cleanings.
Any way this is all very interesting to me and I have this last year begun to reduce my cleaning frequency and instead monitor my reloading recipes and barrel temp with the extra time. My downrange bullet performance has improved dramatically.
I usually clean my centerfire rifles' barrels after 15 to 20 rounds. Because I broke my barrels in properly, and clean so frequently, I usually only have to run a oiled patch, wrapped around a brush, through the bore and remove most of the grunge. Then, I run a degreaser-soaked patch on a jag through the bore to remove any residual oil and resume firing. Why do I clean so frequently? Simple...because I was taught to do so. I'm not saying it's necessary, just what I was taught. For me, the "maintenance" is actually half of the "tinkering" fun of shooting.
Geno
Geno
Ignition Override
Member
If you live in west TN's climate, and want to keep your (S. Grade) Garand's bore looking like it is chrome-lined for years, after how many rounds should you use Hoppe's #9, (or something else
) for the powder residue?
Does copper residue build-up do any indirect harm to the bore?
It makes sense that dry particles attract moisture, even non-corrosive residue must attract, but my first actual reading and learning about guns Began
in '07 (age 52), and neither have a bore light nor know how to really evaluate.
) for the powder residue?Does copper residue build-up do any indirect harm to the bore?
It makes sense that dry particles attract moisture, even non-corrosive residue must attract, but my first actual reading and learning about guns Began
in '07 (age 52), and neither have a bore light nor know how to really evaluate.
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Skylerbone
Member
I've stumbled across a few of Geno's target posts here and I would bet accuracy does not suffer significantly from over-cleaning. We may never know about those last few mm at 300 yards but it seems a non-issue to me. (at least through his bores)
For those who believe their house is "climate controlled" you might want to buy a moisture meter and a 2x4. Temp aside, the humidity in a house varies widely in most places (easy Arizonans) and while that rifle is tucked safely away next to a dehumidifier rod it is indeed fine. Once you pull it out all bets are off.
I too clean every 20 rounds or so for centerfire but in general, that is an entire range session for any one rifle. During load development, I clean after every five-shot group which gives no advantage to any load save the first which has the advantage of 2 warm up shots. Subsequent sessions (once load is developed) rely on the first shot's placement as that is the one that ultimately counts.
My latest rifle, a mid-90ish (from what I can find) Winchester 70 Sporter was cleaned and inspected before firing for safety. Scope zeroed and confirmed at 100 yards after boresighting (target across the room, looking through bore then scope) with seven shots fired. Shots 8-12 resulted in a .453" group with a 3-9x (at 9x) with duplex crosshair $150Sightron scope. That's minute of dead deer in my book and one more shot string confirmed it was not a fluke.
Stock trigger, factory composite stock, not free floated or bedded (can't get a dollar to even START between the barrel and forend). I have no idea of the rifle's history but the rifling looked sharp, the chamber was pit free and at $319 the price was right for me. I'm so tempted to buy a whiz-bang 40x can't even see the thin crosshairs scope to see what my POS sporters are truly capable of. Then again, I'd probably need to petition some help from a better marksman.
We haven't even broached the subject of whether or not "cheap factory barrels" foul faster than "premium" barrels or if there is a magic solution to that "problem". I think the discussion is still quite civil and I'm enjoying both sides while maintaining my consistent cleaning routine.
For those who believe their house is "climate controlled" you might want to buy a moisture meter and a 2x4. Temp aside, the humidity in a house varies widely in most places (easy Arizonans) and while that rifle is tucked safely away next to a dehumidifier rod it is indeed fine. Once you pull it out all bets are off.
I too clean every 20 rounds or so for centerfire but in general, that is an entire range session for any one rifle. During load development, I clean after every five-shot group which gives no advantage to any load save the first which has the advantage of 2 warm up shots. Subsequent sessions (once load is developed) rely on the first shot's placement as that is the one that ultimately counts.
My latest rifle, a mid-90ish (from what I can find) Winchester 70 Sporter was cleaned and inspected before firing for safety. Scope zeroed and confirmed at 100 yards after boresighting (target across the room, looking through bore then scope) with seven shots fired. Shots 8-12 resulted in a .453" group with a 3-9x (at 9x) with duplex crosshair $150Sightron scope. That's minute of dead deer in my book and one more shot string confirmed it was not a fluke.
Stock trigger, factory composite stock, not free floated or bedded (can't get a dollar to even START between the barrel and forend). I have no idea of the rifle's history but the rifling looked sharp, the chamber was pit free and at $319 the price was right for me. I'm so tempted to buy a whiz-bang 40x can't even see the thin crosshairs scope to see what my POS sporters are truly capable of. Then again, I'd probably need to petition some help from a better marksman.
We haven't even broached the subject of whether or not "cheap factory barrels" foul faster than "premium" barrels or if there is a magic solution to that "problem". I think the discussion is still quite civil and I'm enjoying both sides while maintaining my consistent cleaning routine.
Bernie Lomax
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- Oct 13, 2010
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- 173
Yes, a fouled bore will corrode like mad in a damp climate even if not fouled with corrosive residue. I learned this the hard way. I live in Arizona where no one worries much about rust. Anyway, little did I know that the apartment I lived in became extremely humid inside because of the cooling system used during the summer. I had a brand new bore ruined completely because of this.
All my bores now get cleaned with eezox or Break-Free every time I shoot them, even after a single shot. I'm completely fanatical about it. Once bitten, twice shy.
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Coal Dragger
member
After I go through the manufacturers break in period (if they recommend one) I clean the bore only after a lot of rounds are down the tube and accuracy starts to fall off, or after hunting season where the rifle will have seen inclement weather/temperature changes and condensation. This is assuming a good barrel that doesn't accumulate heavy copper fouling.
When I do an intensive cleaning I use a nylon coated Dewey rod, that I clean the outside of regularly to keep grit at bay. I also tend to favor nylon bore brushes when I can so I don't have to drag a metal brush down the barrel. I also try to use relatively gentle solvents to dissolve powder fouling and copper if I can. Lately I have been really pleased with the results and ease of use offered by the foaming bore cleaners since they seem to do their thing without the need to shove a rod and brush or patch back and forth down the barrel eleventy billion times. For running patches I use a good fitting brass jag with a patch, it doesn't take many patches after using the foaming bore cleaner either, which is another plus.
I'll finish up with a patch soaked in a good oil to neutralize any cleaning agents that might go after the barrel steel, this is especially important to me if I am forced to use an ammonia based cleaner to cut heavy copper. I then follow it with a dry patch.
For most quick down a dirty cleaning I just use a bore snake with CLP or a similar oil on the brass bristles and one or two passes down the barrel. I'll often do this right after a range session to keep powder fouling at bay when the barrel is still hot and the fouling is still nice a loose.
Rimfire bores...... yeah I pretty much don't clean them unless accuracy falls off, as mentioned before the wax coating on the bullets does a pretty good job of protecting the bore.
When I do an intensive cleaning I use a nylon coated Dewey rod, that I clean the outside of regularly to keep grit at bay. I also tend to favor nylon bore brushes when I can so I don't have to drag a metal brush down the barrel. I also try to use relatively gentle solvents to dissolve powder fouling and copper if I can. Lately I have been really pleased with the results and ease of use offered by the foaming bore cleaners since they seem to do their thing without the need to shove a rod and brush or patch back and forth down the barrel eleventy billion times. For running patches I use a good fitting brass jag with a patch, it doesn't take many patches after using the foaming bore cleaner either, which is another plus.
I'll finish up with a patch soaked in a good oil to neutralize any cleaning agents that might go after the barrel steel, this is especially important to me if I am forced to use an ammonia based cleaner to cut heavy copper. I then follow it with a dry patch.
For most quick down a dirty cleaning I just use a bore snake with CLP or a similar oil on the brass bristles and one or two passes down the barrel. I'll often do this right after a range session to keep powder fouling at bay when the barrel is still hot and the fouling is still nice a loose.
Rimfire bores...... yeah I pretty much don't clean them unless accuracy falls off, as mentioned before the wax coating on the bullets does a pretty good job of protecting the bore.
Robert Wilson
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- Aug 13, 2009
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I used to clean religiously. Eventually I noticed that most of my guns didn't seem to care whether the bore was clean or not. I also noticed that many of my guns needed a few "foulers" to settle down after cleaning. And then I realized that those "foulers" were the same rounds that got fired at animals. Hmm...
Now I run a boresnake through and then give the bore a light coat of rust preventative. Average humidity in my neck of the woods is about 70%. I've never had a problem with corrosion, and now I don't have to worry about whether my first shot is going to land anywhere near the "group".
Now I run a boresnake through and then give the bore a light coat of rust preventative. Average humidity in my neck of the woods is about 70%. I've never had a problem with corrosion, and now I don't have to worry about whether my first shot is going to land anywhere near the "group".
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