how the USSC will rule bears considering and thought

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alan

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Papers, please
Sunday, March 07, 2004

By Dennis Roddy

Elusive to the last minute, Dudley Hiibel was hunted down on horseback and brought from the high plains of Nevada and into cell phone range to explain why a cowboy is going to the Supreme Court this month.

"It's to protect our rights under the Bill of Rights," he said. "How I got there is real weird, but that's the reason we're going."

Hiibel is a 59-year-old rancher from Grass Valley, Nev., population him. Like many cowboys, he is testimony that America was founded on distrust of authority. He does not like being told what to do. He does not like answering questions. He mostly prefers to be left alone with such friends as will have him and such cattle as he can drive from the plateaus to his ranch and back again until it is time to sell them.

He is precisely the sort of contrarian that gave us the Constitution and exactly the type that needs it most.

On May 21, 2000, Hiibel and his daughter Mimi were riding in his pickup truck when they got into an argument over Mimi's boyfriend. A passing motorist thought he saw someone belting someone -- in fact, 17-year-old Mimi punched her dad in his arm.

When Humboldt County Deputy Lee Dove found Hiibel, he was standing beside the pickup truck, smoking a cigarette.

A transcript of the meeting, captured by the video camera on Dove's cruiser, has Dove telling Hiibel to produce some identification and Hiibel refusing.

"I merely asked him also what the problem was. I was doing nothing," Hiibel said. Hiibel's quick take on the situation was that Dove was perfectly entitled to ask for ID and that he was equally entitled to say no.

Eleven times Dove demanded Hiibel's ID. Eleven times Hiibel refused, occasionally daring the officer to arrest him for the "crime" of not identifying himself. Dove took the dare, cuffed Hiibel, and charged him with domestic battery -- a charge quickly dropped for lack of evidence -- and delaying an officer.

Hiibel was convicted on the "delaying charge" -- meaning he was convicted of hindering Dove from investigating a crime that didn't happen. The reason Hiibel was convicted is a Nevada statute that says when police have a reasonable suspicion to think someone has committed a crime or is about to commit one, police may detain that person "to ascertain his identity and the suspicious circumstances surrounding his presence abroad."

The kicker is the following line: "Any person so detained shall identify himself, but may not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of any peace officer." By "shall" the law means the detainee has no choice in the matter.

The law, Nevada statute 171.123, was written to conform with a 1968 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that allows police to stop people on the basis of "reasonable suspicion," a murky, idiosyncratic standard.

But that ruling, called the Terry decision, was a carefully limited exception to the Fourth Amendment, not a repeal. It certainly did not address the Fifth Amendment, the one against self-incrimination. The court simply said a person could be detained briefly and patted down for weapons. Without reason to arrest, he had to be sent on his way.

It remained for Nevada and a few other states to invent the requirement that the person stopped had to, on penalty of conviction, identify himself.

Every once and again, a law enforcement officer tests the proposition that the state can demand our papers after the fashion of the Albanian border patrol. Three years ago an Allegheny County deputy sheriff decided he didn't like the looks of someone searching for a clerk's office at the courthouse during business hours. When the man declined to show his ID, the deputy arrested him for disorderly conduct. The state Superior Court threw that one out.

"Silence is the crime. You have a right to remain silent, but if you do you've committed a crime. Pretty scary, huh?" said Lawrence Lustberg, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed a friend of the court brief on Hiibel's behalf.

Yes, pretty scary. What is especially scary is that the Nevada Supreme Court upheld Hiibel's conviction by invoking the war on terror. Their citation was a Fox News interview with Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle who says the war on terror is "changing the way we live and the way we act and the way we think."

I thought the war on terror was supposed to preserve all of those things. Instead, it has sufficiently altered our nation to the point where state Supreme Court justices rule invasive laws constitutional and cite Tony Snow's broadcast as corroboration.

The state's case will be argued by the same prosecutor who won Hiibel's conviction. Conrad Hafen, the former deputy prosecutor in Humboldt County, worries that the loss of Nevada's stop-and-identify statute will make everyday law enforcement burdensome.

"If we take that away, how are we going to be able to arrest people who have a warrant pending?" Hafen said. "Simply stating your name to an officer does not amount to admitting a crime."

That doesn't much persuade a man like Dudley Hiibel, who views authority as something that should let him alone.

Hiibel was on the furthermost fringes of the cellular tower's reach, along a grassland plane bordered by the Sonoma Mountains as he explained himself half a continent away. His public profile took on special velocity earlier this year when John Gilmore, a founder of Sun Miscrosystems, a man now rich as God and determined to outspend Him, read of Hiibel's case. Gilmore, a founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, put up the money for two legal researchers to help Dudley's public defender prepare the Supreme Court appeal. Gilmore then sent a publicist to the Nevada plains to field press inquiries on behalf of a man with no telephone and whose only big-city visit was to San Francisco 40 years ago, when he was inducted into the Army.

The Supreme Court hearing will be Hiibel's first visit east. He comes down from the mountains and his cattle to attend church, visit nearby Winnemucca, and vote. He's a Republican and likes George W. Bush and wants to imagine his president is rooting for him in this one.

"This thing -- it's kinda bipartisan, isn't it?" he said. "I mean, everybody who believes in liberal or conservative believes in upholding the Bill of Rights."

Possibly he'll get an answer to that question when he sits in the Supreme Court on March 22 and listens to how Justices Rehnquist, Thomas and Scalia frame their questions.

The most Hiibel can try to do is look presentable.

"I'll polish my boots," he said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Dennis Roddy can be reached at [email protected] or 412-263-1965.)

Posters comments:


Mr. Hiibel offered the following:

The Supreme Court hearing will be Hiibel's first visit east. He comes down from the mountains and his cattle to attend church, visit nearby Winnemucca, and vote. He's a Republican and likes George W. Bush and wants to imagine his president is rooting for him in this one.

"This thing -- it's kinda bipartisan, isn't it?" he said. "I mean, everybody who believes in liberal or conservative believes in upholding the Bill of Rights."

Re his "imagination" concerning where President Bush might stand on this issue, speaking personally, I would not bet a great deal in support of Mr. Hiibel's hopes or what he imagines, for I suspect that he will turn out to be badly disappointed.

Additionally, re his comment on those who "believe in upholding the Bill of Rights", and whom he would expect to find in that number, sad to note. I think that Mr. Hiibel has spent to much time left to his own devices, and as a result of same, has fallen badly "out of it", respecting some important and unhappy aspects of this entire business, and the way things are in the country today, at least respecting elected things, at so many levels.
 
Ameirca should be such a place that the basic tenets of law should be understandable whether you are a law junkie or a cowboy living in the hills. The basic understanding of free men should be the same across time. There is no reason to complicate the law to this degree: I support the cowboy.

We must be able to live our life without running afoul of Johnny law so long as we do not break the law. This incident was run in my local paper a couple of weeks ago. I understood it then and I understand now that the LEO was out of line and looking for compliance (no, subserviance). The cowboy had no moral or ethical duty to inform anyone of his name. Notice how the "assault" charge was dropped. But the "delaying an officer" charge hung on. Absurd.:barf: :barf:
 
One problem with the SCOTUS is they seem to be making decisions on what they "think" is good for the country and not on strict constitutional guidelines. Some examples are:

- Justice John Paul Stevens cited foreign law in a footnote when the majority banned executions of mentally retarded convicts.

- In voting last month to uphold an affirmative action policy at the University of Michigan, Ginsburg, joined by Breyer, highlighted an international treaty that endorsed the use of race-conscious programs to help minorities.

- Kennedy...opinion referred to a ''friend of the court'' brief that described liberty as a global concept and detailed how other countries protect the privacy of gay men and lesbians. It was submitted by Mary Robinson, former United Nations high commissioner for human rights, and others. Kennedy said there was no evidence that the USA has a ''more legitimate or urgent'' reason than other countries to ban homosexual sex.

This means no matter how unconstitutional the case against Hiibel is, we cannot trust the court will protect his rights.

This also brings into question how SCOTUS would rule if they ever did decide to hear a 2nd Amendment case. It is quite possible they could kill the entire 2nd Amendment because of personal prejudices.
 
After the SCOTUS decision upholding the Campaign Finance Reform act recently this Hiibel guy might as well not even bother showing up. SCOTUS is going to uplhold the conviction and "your papers bitte" is going to become more and more commonly heard in the United States of Amerika...
 
Hkmp5sd is correct about this court. They are citing international law and opinion in their decisions. How frightening is that? Sandra Day O'Connor is also fond of using "compelling state interest" in her decisions to limit individual rights (I don't having citations right now - I'm going from memory). So the Bill of Rights, which is supposed to guarantee the rights of individual citizens, is now subect to international law and opinion, and compelling state interest. We certainly cannot rely on the courts to protect our rights. Maybe we need to start impeaching some judges?
 
The state's case will be argued by the same prosecutor who won Hiibel's conviction. Conrad Hafen, the former deputy prosecutor in Humboldt County, worries that the loss of Nevada's stop-and-identify statute will make everyday law enforcement burdensome.

If you want policing to be easy, MOVE TO NORTH KOREA MR. HAFEN!:cuss:
 
I hate to say that I am on the border on this one. Only because driving is not a right. I know that he was not pulled over while driving but it was damn close. if he was driving then I say that you should be made to identify yourself. otherwise I dont think so. But so close to driving is a different story. I think the law in general is ridiculous but in conjunction with driving is different.
 
http://www.papersplease.org/

Watch the trooper's vehicle-cam video. Hibel was not operating a vehicle when the officer arrived on the scene. He was leaning against the tail of his truck, which was pulled off the highway.
 
driving not a right

Can we try that again Jeeper? A hundred years ago you hitched your wagon to go to town. You didn't need permission to use the road and you didn't need a license. You had every right to drive on a public road with out a license then. Now drop an engine in your wagon and all of a sudden driving is a privilege. Since when?
 
I'm not 100% sure the LEO was wrong in this case. The LEO was responding to a call where someone had reported the male striking the female. It would seem that identifying all of the participants would be a prudent step in figuring out what happened. This is far from a cop randomly stopping an individual and demanding his identification.

Remember back when one of Jeffrey Dalmer's victims managed to get loose and was stopped by the police. Dalmer gave them a resonable story and they handed the boy back over to him. If the LEO in this case had let everything slide and Hiibel had killed his daughter a little farther down the road, everyone would have been crying for the cop's head on a platter.
 
I'm not 100% sure the LEO was wrong in this case. The LEO was responding to a call where someone had reported the male striking the female. It would seem that identifying all of the participants would be a prudent step in figuring out what happened. This is far from a cop randomly stopping an individual and demanding his identification.

Remember back when one of Jeffrey Dalmer's victims managed to get loose and was stopped by the police. Dalmer gave them a resonable story and they handed the boy back over to him. If the LEO in this case had let everything slide and Hiibel had killed his daughter a little farther down the road, everyone would have been crying for the cop's head on a platter.

I'm with Hiibel on this one. The facts of the case is that Hiibel did not commit a crime, except the 'delaying an officer' charge.

If we are going to accept that police have the power to detain, demand identification and arrest in order to possibly stop a potential crime from being committed, we are not that far away from having police have the power to disarm gun owners in their homes in order to possibly stop a potential crime from being committed.
 
The facts of the case is that Hiibel did not commit a crime
But the LEO did not know he had not committed a crime. All the LEO knew was a witness reported seeing the male in the truck physically strike the female. The LEO saw Hiible as a suspect in an assault. Having a reasonable suspicion that Hiible committed a violent crime seems like a valid reason to detain Hiible and determine his identity.

What action do you think the LEO should have taken?
 
Detain Hiibel.
Ask for identification.
Arrest Hiibel for not providing identification when police have a reasonable suspicion to think someone has committed a crime or is about to commit one.
When the court date comes along, go to Disneyland.

:D
 
Hkmp5sd wrote:
But the LEO did not know he had not committed a crime. All the LEO knew was a witness reported seeing the male in the truck physically strike the female. The LEO saw Hiible as a suspect in an assault. Having a reasonable suspicion that Hiible committed a violent crime seems like a valid reason to detain Hiible and determine his identity.

What action do you think the LEO should have taken?
In all of this, we seem to forget that it was reported that a man was hitting a woman. Why then didn't the intial Terry Stop include looking at the Female to see if there were signs of domestic abuse?

Not only did the LEO not take any such opportunity, neither did the other two officers, who arrived moments later. In fact, none of the LEO's seemed to care if she was injured at all. They were focused on Hiibel alone.

There is a lot going on here than meets the eye. Including the Nevada Supremes qouting Daschle and Bush after 9/11 to justify a pre 9/11 stop.
 
I saw the video and heard the audio, and the LEO never explained just what he was investigating. If the LEO had been more forthcoming, and Hiibel knew he was investigating a non-crime, then I bet Hiibel would have probably cooperated. He had nothing to lose.
 
drivers license ID

I seem to remember a post on one of these forums regarding federal court
rulings to the effect that a private citizen could not be compelled by any state to carry a drivers license in a pov because no business is involved.
if true could somebody post those rulings.
 
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