How to insure old Pietta 1851 C&B revolver is safe to shoot?

[DeoreDX]

I have an old Pietta 1851 Navy cap and ball revolver that was given to me several years ago. If I read the proof marks correctly it was made in 1971. Someone put it up without cleaning it properly it sat in a humid closet for the next 10-15 years. In short it was a mess when I first got it. I knocked a bunch of the rust off oiled it up with some CLP and it sat in my gun cabinet for another 12 years where it least the humidity was controlled. Last week I decided I wanted to try to shoot it. Before I even tore it down I saw:

Obvious timing problems. You can see where the hammer has hit the side of a couple of the cylinders.



Cylinder is quite pitted. I picked up some of the .375 Hornady balls because that was the only thing I could find locally. Just dropping the ball in the cylinder it sits down 80% of the way into the cylinder using just the weight of the ball.



I broke it down as far as I could. The trigger/bolt spring the screw would not budge. 3 days of hosing it down several times a day with PB Blaster and it still wouldn't budge. I don't have the right blade for the screw as all my hollow ground screw drivers are still too fat for it. Unless I use a size that is about 1/2 the width of the diameter but it's starting to tear the screw up so I decided to leave it alone. The trigger screw it also stuck. I can rotate it about 1/2 turn then it sticks. It looks like the screw has an ever so slight bend in it so when I try to unscrew it, the screw binds. I decided to leave it alone too. I did take everything I could out and hit it with an air eraser to knock off the rust and gave it a light coat of CLP.

Then I tried to take the nipples out of the cylinder. I didnt have a wrench I could get down into and engage the flats. So I took a 3/16" deep socked and used a carbide bit to cut a slot into the socket. I got really good engagement but even after 3 days of PB blaster, heat, bloody knuckles, and a new broken 3/16' deep well socket I couldn't get the nipples to budge.

So knowing that I got it cleaned up as best I could. The inside of the cylinder is still pitted. After cleaning and oiling it up most of the timing issues went away. If I cock the hammer as slow as humanly possibly I can get one or two of the cylinders to not lock up correctly. Normal speed cocks of the hammer will drop the cylinder into the correct spot.

Outside of what I've done what else should I check to make sure this thing is safe to fire? I'm thinking the pitting in the cylinders could lead to much easier chain fires. I might just to single shot with it to start off. What else should I check? Any tips for someone who has never shot a C&B before?

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[BCRider]

Check that the cylinder is actually locking into place when the hammer is at full cock. It should withstand moderate rotation force but if forced strongly will come out of lockup. If it's able to rotate in one direction at full cock freely then that's a bad thing and it could well be the source of the dinged nipple recesses.

A bit of Bore Butter or Crisco shortening applied over the balls after seating them will seal the front against a chainfire regardless of pitting. It may pick up some leading but frankly I doubt it. The barrel would be more inclined to lead up if the surface is pitted but only because the balls are moving faster down the bore than when they are coming out of the cylinder.

Shooting the gun might just aid in loosening the nipples. But if not then I'd say the gun is living on borrowed time. I would say that for now it's safe to shoot for a while. But it's going to be harder to keep the nipples clean. And obviously if shooting the gun and repeated use of penetrating oil does not allow the nipples to be removed at some point then new nipples are not an option.

The fit of the balls suggests that you should likely be starting with .380 size balls instead of the .375 shown. Over ball grease will prevent chain fires but if the size is not large enough to wedge into position with a firm push that swages the waist of the balls you may find the balls walking forward out of the chambers from recoil. And that would be a bad thing as it might lead to a locking up of the action and a possible large air gap in the charge. And air gaps and loose powder in black powder charges are to be avoided at all cost.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I wouldn't argue with anything suggested so far, but will add that I've seen a few cap fragments and gunk in the works to wreak havoc with timing and make a C&B revolver appear to require a major overhaul. Your thorough cleaning very easily could have solved any timing issues the previous owner had. Remember they didn't appear to take very good care of it in the first place.

 

[44 Dave]

The trigger bolt spring screw comes through the frame, you can heat the end some without getting the spring side hot to cook the the penetrating oil into the threads.
You will be surprised at what can be stuck in the works.
And don't use heavy loads in in your brasser.
If all you have are undersized balls you can slightly squish them then carefully load them with the flat up, I got a hand full of .36 with one gun and had no .380s but "needed to try it" and did this.

 

[99whip]

IME, a 50/50 mix of acetone and transmission fluid does a better job than anything of breaking stubborn screws, nipples, etc. After shooting it, or not, you could just soak the whole thing (minus the wood grips) in that solution for a few days or even a week and try again.

Apologies if someone mentioned that and I missed it.

 

[Branko_D]

I'm thinking taking off the grips and just dumping it in a bucket of ATF+acetone mix for a week might do some good, too

Although, if it locks up and chamber is aligned to barrel, it should be okay to shoot, larger balls would do it some good.

 

[DeoreDX]

That's for all the great advise. Really helpful stuff.

So what is considered a light load? All the reviews on Amazon said the tip on this traditions flask dispenses 25 grains. I haven't measured it yet. I could cut it down to lower that or get another tip. I did take several old spent 7.62*54r cases and cut the rim off. Makes for a nice funnel so hopefully minimize the powder between the ball and cylinder. Using pyrodex fffg if it matters.

 

[Panzerschwein]

15 grains would be in the light load status, and good for a brass framed gun.

 

[RecoilRob]

What kind of barrel to cylinder gap do you have? A new Colt Pietta replica will normally not come anywhere near having the wedge driven in all the way which is pretty neat way to adjust the gap. It's on an angle and when new mine all just barely will let the little spring nub out past the barrel when the cylinder is tight against the barrel. Tap it a little more and the cylinder won't rotate.

When the brass guns stretch, you end up needing to pound the wedge all the way in to keep the end shake (forward and back) down and sooner or later it'll be too sloppy to shoot. I believe in keeping the gap as small as it'll still let you cock it with the hammer and not need help with your non shooting hand to rotate. If your wedge is all the way in, and there's more than maybe .010" of clearance to the barrel from front of cylinder, I don't know that I'd want to shoot it. You'll get lots of side spitting lead and powder which can do you or bystanders harm.

A bunch of us decided one day to do a 'Wild Bunch' photo and all lined up shoulder to shoulder and cut loose...I was bleeding from side spit on my arms. Be careful!!

 

[44 Dave]

In a perfect open top the wedge pulls the barrel against the end of the arbor and the barrel/cylinder gap can't be changed with the wedge.
The number of Colt clones that are perfect with out being professionally setup is few, but that should not stop you from having fun shooting it.

 

[BCRider]

MLB above makes a wise point. I was assuming that the gun had been totally broken down and cleaned and inspected. If not that's pretty much the first place to start.

And I'd also forgotten about how good acetone and ATF is at freeing things up. If nothing else needs it at least dunking the cylinder alone into a jar and cap it should seen the nipples become more cooperative. For fighting the sort of rust you have I might lean more to a 2:1 acetone:ATF mix so it's thinner and can work in through the crusty stuff more. But don't go any thinner. It's the ATF which is the stuff that breaks down the rust so you want enough to make it into the threads.

 

[Hellgate]

I've mixed acetone and ATF and it's like Italian dressing: it separates out like oil & water. I don't see how two separated globules are going to loosen anything. It's gonna be one or the other that soaks in but the two do not make a solution, just a suspension that quickly separates. I'd use Kroil or liquid Wrench.

Also, check to see how much cylinder gap it has and whether the cylinder will move front to back. I've seen the recoil shield on the frame get battered inward and the nipples can strike the frame causing a chainfire from the back end. If the arbor is loose in the frame you'll have excess cylinder gap too.

 

[dagger dog]

Run the cylinder through a few freeze and thaw cycles, use your favorite rust penetrant, wrap the cylinder in foil or plastic toss it in the freezer, then use your propane torch or heat gun to warm it up, use a needle nose plier in a vice to hold the cylinder then try turning the nipples.

 

[DeoreDX]

Two of my six cylinders wouldn't fire. Had to stick a small flat blade between the hammer and nipple to clear the cylinder. Tried multiple caps. They just would never strike on those cylinders. So is that a nipple issue or could it be the hammer? What should I check?

It was a ton of fun to shoot. I was quite accurate with it too. Royal PITA to clean afterwards.

https://youtu.be/0IqQy5lIwjY

 

[Hellgate]

It might be those nipples are seated deeper that the others and need to be shimmed out a few thousandths. Here's one of my old posts on nipple shimming and a source for manufactured ones:
To make shims you need some fine soft steel or bronze wire. Copper wire works too but I don't know how durable it is. I've used it though.Take a nail or rod and wrap about 10 coils of wire around the nail. Then get a wire nippers and cut the row of coils off to create a bunch of what resemble small lock washers. They should be almost big enough to slip over the threaded part of the nipples. If you need alot of shimming, use them as is but most likely they are too thick. Then take a small hammer and flatten them on the anvil portion of a vise. This makes them more like a flat washer and you can get fairly consistant thicknesses depending on the diameter of wire you start out with. They will get a little bigger as you flatten them. Just lightly taptaptaptaptap til they all look alike. I always make a bunch of extras 'cause I always drop several and they don't all come out the same. Slip them over the nipple threads under the flange, add grease to the threads if desired and reseat the nipple. Make sure that you have torqued them all down firmly and examine for any inconsistancies. Sometimes it is not the nipple but the hole on one or two cylinder drillings is too deep or shallower than the rest. If you shim them too high the hammer face will get battered. Just right is about a couple thousandths short of contact. It is better to have them a little low than too high 'cause there's no point in beating up the hammer face and making it rough.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-shims/=q5h0dh


Click: "Shims for lenghtening screw shoulders--Metric"

Shoulder diameter of the nipples is 8mm.

Get the screw size 6mm which is the nipple threaded shank size.

Pick the thicknesses you want. You can stack them if they are too thin.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'd take it to an autoshop and have them magnaflux the cylinder and barrel.

Keep your loads light, something like 15 gr FFF.

 

[BCRider]

It's possible that the acetone you used has some water in it. I'm a pretty regular user of Ed's Red and I've had it go milky on me with some bottles of acetone and not others. It still seemed to break down the ATF though. Or possibly it worked in my case due to the mineral spirits I use in place of the kerosene.

 

[DeoreDX]

Two of 3 nipples out. Stupid me I should have marked the problem nipple somehow before I cleaned it and started pulling them. Took the tool I made and put it in one of those impast screwdrivers you hit on the back with a hammer. Going to soak it some more and give it a try again tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll have to break out the blue tip wrench.

 

[44 Dave]

Good idea to use an impact (un-driver).
When they are all out and you measure them I bet a couple are shorter than the rest. Either that or some were not screwed in all of the way.
One reason to have these guns is they give us things to do when we are not shooting them!

 

[Hellgate]

BC Rider,
The acetone/ATF mix I made was from two new sealed bottles from the store. Again, it was like Italian dressing. My Ed's Red has always mixed up into a clear solution. It's just the 50/50 ATF/Acetone penetrant recommendation I just don't see working.
Tye

 

[schpier]

There's no way to "insure" anything. The more concerned you are about your safety the less inclined you should be to use the thing. It's all about personal thresholds.
In my opinion it wouldn't be worth the effort to deal with that old brass framed weapon.

 

[StrawHat]

...The inside of the cylinder is still pitted...

If it were mine, that would make it a parts gun or wall hanger.

Kevin

 

[DeoreDX]

5 down, one very stubborn nipple to go!