Howard Dean's Coalition To Stop Gun Violence Survey Answers

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"2. Do you support or oppose legislation to strengthen the current ban on assault weapons to include all assault weapons, including copycats which are slighty altered and sold under a different name?

I support a tough and effective assault weapons ban"

Yeah, assault weapons like the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, Mini-14, Benelli Black Eagle...

I tell you what if Dean supports HR 2038, then there is effectively no difference between him and any other Democratic candidate - well I guess there is a difference - they all favor the same policies but the media is telling us that Dean is the "pro-gun" guy.
 
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When your only choice is Bush-- who supports expanding the ban, or a liberal-- who supports expanding the ban... your only alternative is going to be the libertarian candidate.

Whoever it is, it will be the only person running who does not support the AWB, or its expansion.

Think about it. How can bush be better than a Democrat on this issue when he has the same position as them.

Bush has ALREADY expanded the AWB*, and endorsed its renewal... well, the renewal laws all expand it even further than he did... so by endorsing its renewal, he's endorsing its expansion to include all semi-auto rifles, etc.

Don

* Bush expaned the AWB by making it illegal via ATF regulation to import barrels for AK, FAL and other "evil assault weapons" that would otherwise be complaint with the AWB. IOW, you could build complaint rifles before, and he has made that illegal.
 
Bush Supports New Extension Of Assault-Weapons Ban
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04122003/nation_w/47311.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891827/posts

Bush Backs Renewing Assault Weapons Ban
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11013-2003Apr11.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891697/posts

…
Let's keep and enforce the federal gun laws we have, close the gun show loophole using Insta-check, and then let the states decide for themselves what if any gun control laws they want.
…
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Gun_Control.htm

IMHO, Dean is trying to be as straightfoward as he can. He says he doesn't want to add any more federal laws (except the closing of that loophole). And he doesn't want to remove any of the federal laws currently on the books. He says that is as far as he is willing to go (in both directions).

Gov. Howard Dean (D-VT) on gun regulation (states' rights, pro-gun)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35583

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The rule of law and due process are at the heart of the American tradition. There is no contradiction between protecting the country from terrorism and ensuring the protection of our basic civil liberties every step of the way.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/...shcroft&JServSessionIdr002=egzno4osu1.app193a
 
I'm all for Dean in the Dem primary as he is still perceived to be the strongest pro-gun candidate there and I think we should reward that.

However anyone who doesn't think there is a difference between Bush and Dean on guns is like someone who doesn't think there is a difference between candy and enema because they are both 5-letter words.

The test for any politician isn't what they say, it is what they do.
 
" The test for any politician isn't what they say, it is what they do."

Yes, and on this score, Bush is mildly more anti-gun than Dean.

When are you guys going to draw a line in the sand and say "no farther!"????

I think the AWB is a good place to do so.

Bush signs a renewal of it, and he should totally lose your support.

IF you vote for Bush after he's signed a renewal of the AWB, you cannot call yourself a supporter of the RKBA, IMNSHO.

Hell, really, you should stick to your principles and Bush should have lost your support when he pledged to sign the renewal.

Frankly, I think many republicans in the gun culture don't care about gun rights at all-- they're pro-law and order and think that gun laws are important to have... they believe in gun control, and hate Democrats to such an extent that they will NEVER vote for anyone other than a repbulcian, no matter HOW MANY edicts or laws they pass.

Remember, George Bush Senior started this AWB business ,and Bush junior has ALREADY expanded the band.

At what point do you stop supporting his gun grabbing ways?

As long as he can support gun control and pick up some moderate Democrats without losing your vote, he will do it, and thus, you will have endorsed his gun control.

Obedient voting blocks have no power. This is the way it always has been. The pollsters know it. They know you guys support Bush even though he's stated his intention to renew the AWB-- why do you think they put that position out there? Nothing happened, so they know they can get away with expanding the AWB further.

You will get no respect from him until you stand up to him and say "No More!"
 
"Bush signs a renewal of it, and he should totally lose your support."

Absolutely. The thing is, the AWB renewal will not reach his desk.

It's been said that watching politics is like watching the process of sausage-making: you don't want to see how it's done, even if you like the end product.

I wish I had the money to place a bet here on THR about whether or not Bush will ever sign a renewal--or the more extreme version--of the AWB ban.

If I could cough up $1000 for every doubter, I could probably retire early.
 
Yes, and on this score, Bush is mildly more anti-gun than Dean.

And you base this on what?

When are you guys going to draw a line in the sand and say "no farther!"????

This is exactly where GOA and the no compromise crowd is a little too full of themselves. In a Republic, if you have the power to draw lines in the sand, then you won't have to. If you don't have the power, then you can draw lines in the sand until you are exhausted and the only thing will happen is that sand will be kicked in your face.

I think the "no compromise" group needs to wake up out of whatever fantasy world they are living in and accept that the entire GOA membership numbers less than 10% of NRA members, who in turn number less than 10% of gun owners. We are a minority group - if we were a majority, we wouldn't have to compromise.

A "no compromise" organization of 4.2 million isn't going to be powerful - it is going to be powerless because in a nation of 274 million it is still a tiny minority and politics is built around compromise. If you have to adopt a position that 250 million people hate (mostly because those 250 million people are ignorant) just to get the votes of the 4.2 million, you are going to find that is a losing deal real quick and abandon the small group. The only way the small group serves as an effective political force is if they COMPROMISE on their goals enough to give you political cover.

Until we can educate the ignorant, all this talk of "lines in the sand" is foolish; because we are not in a position to be drawing lines anywhere - and that is with a relatively "strong" RKBA movement.

Bush signs a renewal of it, and he should totally lose your support.

If he does, he will.

Hell, really, you should stick to your principles and Bush should have lost your support when he pledged to sign the renewal.

You mean when he stated his support for the ban back during his 2000 campaign? Where would the "no-compromise" position have gotten us then? It would have put Al "handgun licensing and registration" Gore in the driver's seat. That would have showed them for not accepting our "no compromise" position.

Remember, George Bush Senior started this AWB business ,and Bush junior has ALREADY expanded the band.

George Bush Sr. allowed the ATF to monkey with the definition of "sporting purposes" to use the already passed 1968 GCA to stop the import of many weapons - a practice that practically every one of the domestic gun manufacturers endorsed and enjoyed. There is a difference between protectionism and anti-gun.

The Republicans and Bush I also helped to kill 12 assault weapon ban bills in 1989 alone and continued to help us out until they were voted out of power in the White House and Congress both.

If you have a bit of evidence that Bush II has supported an expansion of the ban with concrete actions then please share it, a link - a news story - anything.

Obedient voting blocks have no power.

Neither do "no compromise" voting blocks for the reasons I've already outlined.

Right now, you are demanding we punish Bush for an action that he hasn't even carried out yet and all common sense suggests he never will carry out. Consider how following this advice in the past would have affected us and our cause. Now please explain how this advice is going to help our cause in the future.
 
You will get no respect from him until you stand up to him and say "No More!"

And making yourself irrelevant says what to him? How did Bush Sr. respond during his second term to the pressure that defecting Republicans put on him? Oh, wait. I forgot. He didn't have a second term. We got Clinton instead, and the Brady Bill, Assault Weapons Ban, HUD agreement with S&W, etc., etc., etc.

Taking yourself out of the process means that politicians don't have to listen to you anymore.
 
Howard Dean is no friend.

Neither is Shrub.

BUT, Shrub is still a better choice than Dean, IF you're not voting third party, for the reason of judicial appointments. He is also one micrometer more pro-gun than Dean, and 3 or 4 micrometers more pro-gun than his father.
 
Howard Dean has never banned any guns.

Shrub has.

AS has been pointed out to Bart a number of times, Bush has ALREADY EXPANED THE AWB.

Course, for you guys "banning foriegn guns is ok, its protectionism!"

Yeah right.

Banning any gun is wrong. To my knowledge Dean hasn't, Bush has.

Bush has expanded the AWB.

You talk about how GOA is smaller than the NRA.... well that only reflects the incompetance of the NRA. Why isn't the NRA which is well funded doing anything?

What has the NRA EVER done for gun owners? (Not gun makers.) ??? What?

Name one peice of gun control legislation they have had over turned... one bill they have passed that made things better for us.

I can think of one. But every time there's a bit of new gun grabbing legislation, it gets the NRA endorsement.

This isn't about being "no compromise" this is about actually supporting people who support the RKBA.

I think supporting the NRA is not supporting the RKBA, every time the issue comes up they compromise to the point of supporting gun bans.

You believe what they say and ignore what they do.
 
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AS has been pointed out to Bart a number of times, Bush has ALREADY EXPANED THE AWB.

Bush signed an expansion of the Federal Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (popularly known as the Assault Weapons Ban)?

You're telling me that Congress authored a bill expanding the AWB, sent it to Bush and he signed it into law? :scrutiny:

Somebody, somewhere needs to send me a link to the relevant legislation on this one, because I can't find it.

LawDog
 
Don, every time you can't seem to limit yourself to strictly addressing the facts you stick your foot in your mouth.

AS has been pointed out to Bart a number of times, Bush has ALREADY EXPANED THE AWB.

I've asked you in another thread to show some support for this as some of your other statements (NICS data used in Maryland case) were inaccurate. Perhaps if I could see the specific evidence of the allegation you are making, I might be more inclined to share your views; but we won't know that until somebody shows some evidence, will we?

Course, for you guys "banning foriegn guns is ok, its protectionism!"

No, it isn't OK - and I challenge you to find where I said otherwise. I would much rather American gun manufacturers had to compete for my dollars on a level playing ground and the import ban slants the playing field in their direction.

However, the 1989 ATF decision on what constitutes "sporting" firearms was widely welcomed by the domestic gun industry because of this - so is that an anti-gun decision or a pro-gun decision? Did Bush make it because he has a secret agenda to take all your guns away or because the manufacturers contributing to his campaign thought it a clever way to deflect criticism away from their man and gain some extra market share at the same time? Acknowledging that an issue is a little bit more complicated than pro/anti-gun isn't the same as approving of it.

You talk about how GOA is smaller than the NRA.... well that only reflects the incompetance of the NRA. Why isn't the NRA which is well funded doing anything?

You mean like Lawsuit Preemption or Repeal of the semi-auto ban?

Name one peice of gun control legislation they have had over turned... one bill they have passed that made things better for us.

They have overturned sections of the Brady Law, portions of the 1968 Gun Control Act. They passed a repeal of the semi-auto ban through the House and of course there is the massive increase in shall-issue concealed carry throughout the nation.

That is what I could come up with off the top of my head from the last 15 years or so...

Apparently, you guys oppose the RKBA-- you haven't seen a gun ban you didn't support, or a gun banning organization like the NRA that supported it that lost your support!

:rolleyes: OK Don, you win. The NRA is a gun banning organization. You got me on that one. No hyperbole or absurdity in that statement.

However when you recover your breath from that spittle-flinging rant, you might consider that when you have to work this hard to sell your position to someone whose collection consists almost entirely of firearms that are either currently banned or slated to be banned, you might just be coming at the issue from the wrong angle.

For that matter, if you can't win me over with your perplexing ability to reason, then how exactly do you propose to win over people who have never even seen a gun - because you can't achieve your goals until you do.
 
How is preventing american companies from making firearms a form of protectionism?

You can import a Saiga legally. But if you take the same Saiga apart and import the parts, you can't assemble a firearm from it.

Thus the actions of this ban supports the russian manufacturer, but prevents american companies who want to build firearms from surplus parts from doing so.

This wasn't a law-- it was an edict from the administration, enacted by the ATF, which has the force of law (which is unconstitutional, btw).

And the idea that its there to support american business doesn't wash-- its american businesses who are prevented from making firearms by it.

But it does prevent firearms that are legal, but still the targets of the AWB, from being made... its an expansion of the AWB.

As to the NICS data being used, you have not disproven that... your link was in reference to 9/11 not the DC "sniper" case. But even your link supports my argument-- it was talking about preventing the NICS data from being used-- which clearly means the data is not being destroyed as you claim.
 
How is preventing american companies from making firearms a form of protectionism?

Please explain which American companies were prevented from making firearms as a result of the 1989 Import Ban.

Don, if you don't understand why stopping the import of foreign-made firearms and parts kits makes it easier for domestic manufacturers (the large ones that contribute to political campaigns) to increase their market share, then I don't know what to say as I don't have the patience to explain what I feel to be a rather basic and easily understood concept.


As to the NICS data being used, you have not disproven that... your link was in reference to 9/11 not the DC "sniper" case.

So you are claiming, without a shred of proof other than your post, that John Ashcroft, the same guy who wouldn't release NICS information post 9/11, suddenly caved and released the information during the Maryland investigation?

After all there isn't any other possible explanation is there, I mean it isn't like every gun store in Maryland has a big box of 4473s that could be looked at without even involving NICS, right?

But even your link supports my argument-- it was talking about preventing the NICS data from being used-- which clearly means the data is not being destroyed as you claim.

Don, the data was not destroyed until 90 days had passed during the Clinton Administration. Also did you miss this link? Let me quote the relevant portions of Sen. Levin's criticims "But in June, the Attorney General announced plans to reduce the length of time that law enforcement agencies can retain NICS data to 24 hours."

I think I've been more than fair in attempting to provide information to support my claims; how about you return the favor now and show me:

1) Where GWB has expanded the current ban as you claim
2) Any evidence you have to support the use of NICS data in the Maryland Sniper case
 
But it does prevent firearms that are legal, but still the targets of the AWB, from being made... its an expansion of the AWB.

Uh, Don. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Guess not. You see, if you did, you would understand that what you are referencing is a provision of law enacted by Congress in 1991 . . . 3 years before the AWB and 9 years before GWB. Do you think Air Force One can go back in time?
 
Voting is always choosing the least of all the evils. One thing I learned recently is that Dean was the only politician in either party who stood up and said he did not believe Bush's "reasons" for the war and Dean is the only one whose spine did not collapse like wet cardboard when Bush started swinging his "Anybody Who Doesn't Support Me is a Bin Laden Lover" war club to silence his critics.

I haven't yet heard all about him, but finding a guy who knows a liar when he hears one and doesn't cave in when the SHTF is a pretty good start toward somebody I might vote for.
 
" Uh, Don. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Guess not. You see, if you did, you would understand that what you are referencing is a provision of law enacted by Congress in 1991 . . . 3 years before the AWB and 9 years before GWB. Do you think Air Force One can go back in time?"

And yet for ten years-- a decade from Bush one's term (When this provision was enacted, according to you) to Bush's second term, it was not used?

Between 1994 and 2001 you could import parts kits and assemble them into AWB compliant weapons, such as FALs and AK types. Many american companies did this. (Despite barts attempt to confuse the issue talking about 1989, the vast majority of post 1994 ban FALs and AKs were built by american companies in this manner.)

Now, after Bush, these american companies can no longer build weapons using these imported parts. At the same time, you can go into any gun store in the country and buy a Saiga made in Russia that is still legal. Same barrel, but your dollars benefit the russian assembler because the american who used to make them from surplus parts can no longer import said parts (or even new ones).

Benefiting Russian companies at the expense of americans seems to be Barts idea of "protectionism". Yeah, for Russia!

Buzz- I think you just don't even have a clue what you're talking about. The rule came down in 2001, under Bush.

Just go talk to any of the companies that sell the parts kits when the rule changed.

Bountyhunter-- that'sa good point. Its clear Bush has been incompetant on this front-- the Iraq war is a mess, and it wasn't an imminent threat and when the hell are we going to get out of there? Its just costing more and more lives and money.

The republcian types can claim that 9/11 happened because Clinton gutted the intelligence community, but I don't buy it-- I don't see how he gutted them, and if he had and they wanted to get back, they would have let something happen on his watch, not on Bushes.

All in all, Bush has been quite the failure-- he failed to scramble the airforce jets--kept them waiting when they were ready to go-- on 9/11, and thus the terrorists had their day. While he sat and read to kids. Pathetic.
 
Okay, this thread has veered far enough off course.

Lights out.

LawDog
 
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