I have a question for all you Schutzen rifle owners,,,

[aarondhgraham]

I have a question for all you Schutzen (sp?) rifle owners,,,
Where in the heck do you find ammunition for them?

When I read threads about these absolutely beautiful rifles,,,
They are always chambered for some obscure round I've never heard of before.

I'm guessing they were common rounds in Europe,,,
But from what I have read in Google searches,,,
Many of the cartridges are now obsolete.

I'm assuming that a lot of you reload those cartridges,,,
But even then, where in the heck do you find the brass for them?

Honestly gentlemen,,,
I'm not ragging or ridiculing you,,,
I'm simply wondering how you get ammo to shoot.

Please,,,
Enlighten me.

Aarond

P.S. Is anyone manufacturing a new Schutzen style rifle in .22 LR?.

.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

I don't own a proper Schützen rifle, but I have a Mauser target rifle (Wehrmannsgewehr) in a fairly common Schützen cartridge: 8.15x46R. I also have a Ruger No.1 that I paid good money to convert to 32-40.

Two routes to ammo, depending on the cartridge: Huntingtons or case forming.

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/home.php




Both of my Schützen-type cartridges can be formed from 30-30 brass. For 32-40, you just anneal the case and run it into a 32-40 resizing die -- it comes out slightly short, but not enough to matter in a single shot. Forming these cases are about as easy as it gets.

The 8.15x46R starts the same way, then gets a second pass in another resizing die, is cut to length and then has the rim dimensions reduced. I made about 50 cases for my 8.15 this way and got the process down to about 10 minutes per case. I also have another 25 RWS factory cases from Huntingtons -- that's probably enough for two lifetimes of shooting with this mild cartridge.



The point with Schützen cartridges is that you don't need many cases. Often a single case gets reused for an entire match, with the bullet breech-seated separately and the case recharged for each shot.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Wow!

I had no idea!

I just assumed that they used normal cartridges,,,
I'm 4 days short of turning 69 years old,,,
I just learned something entirely new.

Thank you very much for posting that extremely informative video,,,
Now I know what I'll be reading up on for weeks to come.

Aarond

P.S. I wonder how much it would cost to have my H&R Sportster .22 single-shot,,,
Tricked out with a Schutzen style stock and sights.

.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

You might see whether your local public library can borrow a copy of this book for you:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/schu...ton-mass/oclc/404550738&referer=brief_results

I bought my own copy of the following title when it was about $50 -- interesting, but not at this price:

https://www.bundukibooks.com.au/The-Golden-Age-of-American-Schuetzenfest-Wright-p/ss35.htm

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

P.S. I wonder how much it would cost to have my H&R Sportster .22 single-shot,,,
Tricked out with a Schutzen style stock and sights.

Quite a bit -- the tang sight for the H&R Buffalo Classic would work, but they're getting hard to find and were pricey to begin with:

https://www.buffaloarms.com/marbles-tang-sight-for-h-r-buffalo-classic-mar009813

If you can live with a ghost ring peep mounted on the barrel, I recommend the NDS38 from these guys -- I've got two:

https://www.nodakspud.com/

 

[aarondhgraham]

Converting my H&R Sportster would be a hoot for grins,,,
But a waste of money in the long run.

My question was meant to be very tongue in cheek.

I do like that style of shooting though,,,
Slow single-shot at decent distance.

That's what brought my H&R to mind,,,
I like to shoot a very slow paced target stage at 100 yards.

I'm a mediocre shot on my best day,,,
But it is relaxing and suits my temperament.

If my eyes were just ten years younger,,,
I might have dove head first into the Schutzen game.

Aarond

.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Converting my H&R Sportster would be a hoot for grins,,,
But a waste of money in the long run.

My question was meant to be very tongue in cheek.

I've heard of worse ideas, and .22 rimfire Schützen clones are a thing:

https://www.buffaloarms.com/system-aydt-schuetzen-rifle-22-lr-32-oct-barrel-gunlr01xx

The Sportster is a fun little rife -- mine is a little hinky to cock the hammer and the trigger is heavy and unyielding, but it spits them into a nice group when I do my part. I like the way it forces me to slow down and savor each shot, like a muzzleloader without so much cleanup.



My other favorite NEF combo is a custom barrel job I had the late Dick Nickel make for me in .38 Super -- it carries that NDS38 sight I mentioned:



I have two other Handis in 300 Blackout and .22 K Hornet, plus extra barrels in .223 Rem and .357 Maximum, but they don't get quite as much action.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Well now,,,
Another Sportster owner,,,
We may be the only two in existence.

Back when I first got back into recreational shooting in 2005,,,
I wanted a single-shot .22 rifle to get me started again,,,
I selected the H&R as I like break-open actions.

Shortly after that I saw a pristine Handi-Rifle in .357 Magnum,,,
Being a sucker for rimfire/centerfire pairs,,,
I had to snag it.

One summer that .357 Magnum was my dedicated armadillo rifle,,,
They were decimating my lady friends vegetable garden,,,
The Handi-Rifle did the job rather well.



As you can see in the photo the scope was way too high on the Sportster,,,
I never liked shooting the rifle because of that problem.

Recently though I did some scope swapping,,,
I ended up putting a tubular red dot on the Sportster,,,
Now the dang thing has become one of my favorites again.

Looks a little funky though,,,

I might try mounting one of the reflex type red dots on it,,,
Just to make the rifle a bit sleeker in looks.

I did have a local gunsmith look into mounting a tang sight on it,,,
A non-clickable style would allow me to use the rifle in Rimfire BPCS matches.

Most of those guys are competing with 3-4 thousand dollar rigs,,,
I would be doing it with this rifle just for the fun of it

The problem is that there isn't much of a metal surface to affix a sight to,,,
He did say he could easily mount an adjustable peep to the barrel,,,
And replace the front sight with something hooded.

That would cost me almost twice what the rifle originally did,,,
So I don't see that happening in the future.

I'll probably leave the rifle as it is,,,
And just keep on trying to hit that ram at 100 yards.

I bought a hammer extender for my Sportster,,,
If I recall correctly it's cost was less than a 5-dollar bill,,,
That little add-on made a world of difference in cocking the gun.

You can see it in that second picture.

Aarond

P.S. That Ram silhouette isn't afraid of me at all.

.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello again Dave:

I looked up that NDS 38 sight,,,
It seems like it could be perfect for me and my Sportster.

So I e-mailed them asking a few questions.

1) Does it work for the .22 Sportster with the existing front sight?

2) Does it mount using the existing holes for the Weaver rail?

3) Do you (they) have any in stock?

I hope they answer with Yes for all of the questions,,,
If so, you may have pointed me in a very nice direction.

I have a lot of rimfire rifles,,,
Some very high-quality and some just beaters,,,
But for some reason that break-open H&R makes me smile more than any other.

Except maybe for my Henry Acu-Bolt,,,
That's one sweet shooting bolt-action single-shot rifle.

Anyways,,,
Thanks for the conversation,,,
Thanks for that Schutzen video,,,
And also for the lead on that aperture sight.

Aarond

.

 

[Captcurt]

I have a question for all you Schutzen (sp?) rifle owners,,,
Where in the heck do you find ammunition for them?

When I read threads about these absolutely beautiful rifles,,,
They are always chambered for some obscure round I've never heard of before.


Please,,,
Enlighten me.

Aarond


.

I got one in on consignment today. It is a Black Powder Percussion gun. I haven't measured the barrel yet to see what caliber and didn't see anything on the barrel. Pretty cool old gun. I will try to get some pictures in a few days. Our gun deer season opens tomorrow, so it may be more than a few days.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

1) Does it work for the .22 Sportster with the existing front sight?

Front might be a little low -- I installed a Williams ramp and a taller front insert on my thicker 38 ACP barrel, but I haven't verified whether the Sportster front would prove more suitable.

2) Does it mount using the existing holes for the Weaver rail?

I think so -- I believe H&R/NEF used the same spacing as on the other handis, and the Nodak sight mounts using the two rearmost holes.

3) Do you (they) have any in stock?

When I last emailed the boss a few years back with an idea about making one compatible with the Ruger No.3 hole spacing, he said they weren't selling well and he still had a bunch. I'll bet they still have some around.

Except maybe for my Henry Acu-Bolt,,,
That's one sweet shooting bolt-action single-shot rifle.

I've got a take on that one too -- it's a Mini-Bolt mated to an Acu-Bolt stock. Had to have a new dovetail added under the barrel for the stock screw, but it works.

 

[amd6547]

Just to make you cry...
My Dad served in an armored cavalry unit in France and Germany in WWII...his unit was first in many small German towns, where they would post the surrender proclamation, and demand that all weapons be turned in.
He said that along with the obvious weapons of war, there were many fine schutzen target rifles.
Everything was laid along a curb, and an M5 Stuart tank driven over them...then, on to the next town.
He always felt bad about those schutzen.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Just to make you cry...
My Dad served in an armored cavalry unit in France and Germany in WWII...his unit was first in many small German towns, where they would post the surrender proclamation, and demand that all weapons be turned in.
He said that along with the obvious weapons of war, there were many fine schutzen target rifles.
Everything was laid along a curb, and an M5 Stuart tank driven over them...then, on to the next town.
He always felt bad about those schutzen.

My uncle was in on the occupation of Japan and helped himself to several swords and Arisakas, but tons of nice, resellable milsurps still got unceremoniously dumped into the bay. This kind of waste probably still happens daily in various Middle East conflicts and African conflicts, whenever the big nation 'peace-keepers' find small arms of any kind.

Here's a story of a GI-rescued arm with a very happy ending for the family (sold for $181K):
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/king-louis-xvs-magnificent-engraved-lorenzoni-rifle/

===

After Sam Cummings, later of Interarmco/Interarms, toured postwar Europe on a CIA mission to survey remaining arms caches in enemy and occupied territory, he got the idea of going into business selling the stuff rather than seeing it destroyed. Last year I read a heavily biased 1983 biography of Cummings titled Deadly Business; I wish someone would write a new bio from a more neutral standpoint -- he led an interesting life, even if he was a 'difficult' person.

Francis Bannerman was another very interesting character in the surplus biz. I bought a great video documentary about him a few months ago -- even my wife liked it:
http://bannermangallery.com/store/p1/Bannerman_DVD_Video.html#/

 

[Speedo66]

Francis Bannerman was another very interesting character in the surplus biz. I bought a great video documentary about him a few months ago -- even my wife liked it:
http://bannermangallery.com/store/p1/Bannerman_DVD_Video.html#/

Bannerman was a character, he had a store and warehouse filled with military surplus, including high explosive artillery shells, right on Broadway in Manhattan!

He later bought a small island 50 miles north of the city on the Hudson River and built a castle like armory to store his wares, the remains of the derelict castle are still there.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Bannerman was a character, he had a store and warehouse filled with military surplus, including high explosive artillery shells, right on Broadway in Manhattan!

He later bought a small island 50 miles north of the city on the Hudson River and built a castle like armory to store his wares, the remains of the derelict castle are still there.

Copies of the new documentary video are being sold to help fund the Bannerman Trust, which has been working to preserve what's left on the Island -- they've partly restored the family home and are trying to stabilize what's left of the ruined warehouse 'castle'. There are a few shots at the end of the video showing the interior of the house and the gardens today.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello again Dave:

I received a reply from NODAKSPUD about the NDS 38 sight.

They verified that it would mount to the Sportster barrel,,,
They apparently have some in stock.

They couldn't tell me whether it would zero on the front sight of the Sportster.

Tonight I'll run a cleaning rod out the muzzle,,,
Then measure the height of the front blade from the rod.

Perhaps if I take pictures of the measurement,,,
They can advise me whether or not it would work.

I'm no gunsmith at all,,,
But I can "remove and replace" with the best of them.

If I could find sights that just replace what's on the gun,,,
I think I would spend the cash and do it.

But if not,,,
I'll just enjoy shooting it with the red dot.

Aarond

.

 

[DocRock]

Not a proper schuetzen rifle, rather a stalking rifle, but built on a Mauserbuchsen (small Mauser) 1871 pattern receiver, a beautifully simple piece of engineering, as were many schuetzen rifles. Cartridge is obscure, a late 1870s creation formed by cutting down the 11mm Mauser of the original 1871 Mauser, designated 9.5x47R. Can be formed from 11mm Mauser, but those cases are up on the shelf with the hen’s teeth. Luckily, Bertram Brass makes some from time to time. Apparently out of 24 carat gold...

.374” 250 grs slicks, paper patched to .378” loaded over 50 grs 1.5 Fg Old Eynsford



and rifle

 

[mcb]

My father-in-law gave me a Gewehr 98 from, as best I can tell, the interwar period, that is chambered in 8.15x46R. One of these days I am going to have to buy some ammo for it. Its in pretty good condition for it age. He is not sure where it came from, it had just been in a closet going back to his childhood. With no importer marks on it I am assuming it was brought back from Europe by a relative.

 

[Chuck R.]

My father-in-law gave me a Gewehr 98 from, as best I can tell, the interwar period, that is chambered in 8.15x46R. One of these days I am going to have to buy some ammo for it. Its in pretty good condition for it age. He is not sure where it came from, it had just been in a closet going back to his childhood. With no importer marks on it I am assuming it was brought back from Europe by a relative.

I've also got an 8.15x46R based on a Martini action. Buff arms has the brass & dies, I bought a NEI bullet mold back when they were in business. Mine was a gift from my Austrian FIL, my wife brought it back during one of her trips home:

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Not a proper schuetzen rifle, rather a stalking rifle, but built on a Mauserbuchsen (small Mauser) 1871 pattern receiver

Lookin good Doc -- glad the project has progressed!

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Hello again Dave:
If I could find sights that just replace what's on the gun,,,
I think I would spend the cash and do it.
But if not, I'll just enjoy shooting it with the red dot.

The most likely issue you'll encounter is zeroing a bit high. If so, you could fix that by removing the front sight from the barrel and having a bit of extra metal welded, brazed or hard soldered onto the top to make it taller -- build it up really tall and then file it down until the groups center.

I like finding a workshop that teaches welding for something like this. I used this method to get a broken transfer bar on a Taurus revolver fixed by the instructor at a 'make-space' class, in exchange for a $10 donation toward donuts.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

My father-in-law gave me a Gewehr 98 from, as best I can tell, the interwar period, that is chambered in 8.15x46R. One of these days I am going to have to buy some ammo for it. Its in pretty good condition for it age. He is not sure where it came from, it had just been in a closet going back to his childhood. With no importer marks on it I am assuming it was brought back from Europe by a relative.

Mine was scrubbed of original military markings and reserialed. The only new markings were on the barrel, which had Bohler stamped somewhat crookedly plus some proofs.



Except for the duffel-cut on the stock and probably mis-matched bolt, my rifle looks almost new after reworking.



The Lange visier rear sight was stamped for Wehrsport distances.



There's some excellent information on these rifles at this German site: http://www.feuerbixler.de/history24.html

I also wrote up a little piece for the Surplused group: https://surplused.com/index.php/2020/03/30/wehrmanns-gewehr/

Buffalo carries loaded ammo, but be advised that the bore sizes vary wildly for rifles in this cartridge. Most later rifles seem to like .319" bullets, but the range can go anywere from .316-.323", especially with pre-WWI rifles.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/8-15x46r-loaded-smokeless-ammo-box-of-20-amo81546r

Once you source brass and dies, it's a pretty easy cartridge to load.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Cool stuff!

My father and I managed to attend one of the Coors Schuetzenfest matches at the old Golden Gun Club before it got turned into ritzy houses. Max Goodwin, one the match founders and Coors VP, was one of my neighbors, and whom I collected their paper and mail when on vacation to make some $$$ as a kid.

They process to execute a single shot was extensive, including seating the projectile separately from the loaded case- not unlike a 155mm field gun.

Most of the guys I remember were using the .33-40 variant.

 

[DocRock]

Lookin good Doc -- glad the project has progressed!

Sorry for the digression OP.

Got a Lyman 17 globe up front and an MVA tang sight on now. Still working on !oad, but it dials in closer each time I shoot it. Hoping to compete with it next Spring.