I have come to the dark side....(and a question)

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TMM

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Ok, so, i recently learned that there was a Cabela's near where i live, about an hour away. A friend/coworker and i drive up there to check it out. it was totally awesome, but only got better when we got to the gun section (of course). after checking out some really nice used guns, i meandered to the pistol cases... and there, lo and behold, were several C&B revolvers... big, shiny, and asking to be picked up. I asked an employee to show me the 1851 Colt .44. Now, i didn't notice this, but my friend said that the second i held that pistol, a big smile came over my face. Man, that Colt felt good, and what a fantastic trigger pull! I then checked out the 1858 Remington, but it felt like a big, ungainly block in my hands. and the grip was too big. the 1851, though...beautiful style (more antique looking than the top-strapped 1858 Remmy), great weight, and it points VERY naturally. if i close my eyes and aim, when i open my eyes the sights are almost perfectly lined up. And, it was priced right at $149...
So anyway, i left with the 1851, Triple Seven, and a starter kit. my only regret is that i didn't buy more bullets, as the kit only has 30. I got home, sat in my chair, and played with it and read the manuals for what turned out to be about an hour and a half. I then put it to bed in it's box for the night.

...now, i have a question about loading it. in the box, there was a warning paper saying that brass framed guns (mine's brass framed) shouldn't be loaded with more than 25 grains of BP. the Pietta manual, though, states that the load should be between 12-15 grains. lastly, the Cabela manual states that the max load is 35 grains. who do i believe?:banghead:

Now, i can also shoot conicals from this gun, right? would it be worth it in terms of accuracy or just stick with a roundball?

Now, i'm probably off to make some paper cartridges and see if the indoor range allows BP...

TMM
 
Congratulations on your new toy :); and WELCOME to the Darkside :D:D:D

20 to 25 grains of fffg BP would be a good load. Since you are using T7, 15 - 20 grains would also be a good load that wouldnt overstress the pistol. Conicals can be shot from it; but they are pricey :cuss: if you don't cast your own from dead soft lead; and, are anecdotally less accurate than round balls.
 
Check the base of the rammer. IIRC Pietta mills out the bottom of the rammer into a concave shape, primarily suitable for roundball.
Having tried to load conicals in this once I found that the rammers on Piettas tend to crush the spire on conicals.
Uberti tends to mill the ram into a conical shape (not always!) and such a ram will work well for both roundball and conical ammo.
I would probably stick with 15-25 gr. of powder. The problem is that ity's said that brass frames will stretch after a lot of shooting with heavy loads.
People will say they shoot brass frame guns forever and never have a problem. Other people have posted photos of their brass guns showing the base of the recoil shield having been impressed with the notches found on the rear of the cylinder, put their from the recoil of shooting.
In reality the best load isn't the heaviest load, it's the most accurate, and you need to tinker with the load to find this.
Just use lighter loads and you'll be OK.
 
Here's you some advice even though you didn't ask me for it. The advice is free. Free advice is usually worth just about what it cost..Don't be shooting 35 grains in that little brass framed revolver. You'll ruin the hell out of it. 35 grains is normally used as a hunting load (deer and hog) and call's for a heavy steel framed revolver. Tell Cabela's you need a powder flask with a 24 grain spout on it. They have plenty of them and they don't cost much. One throw will give you about 24 grains. One throw per chamber. A 24 grain throw is a good load for that piece. Have fun....
 
Absolutely not over 20 grains by volume of fffg 777, or 25 grains by volume of fffg real black powder or Pyrodex P. And if you do try conical projectiles I'd strongly suggest you reduce the loads further based on the weight of the conical vs that of a .457 round ball; the heavier conical will have a higher recoil load for the same amount of powder than a round ball.
 
What mykeal said! A 18gr load in your revolver well be enough to keep that smile on your face and you well not have any wear and tear issues. It's those full house 30-35+ grain loads the damage the brass frame revolvers.
Try a few cylinders with 15, 20 and 25 grain loads, I well bet you find it's most accurate at 20 grains. With triple 7 reduce those by 15%. That would be 13, 17 and 21 grains.
 
thanks for the advice! I wanted a steel framed revolver because of the strength issue, but it was pretty, it was inexpensive, and it was right in front of me... so i had to buy it. (i've got a funny feeling this won't be the last C&B i'll buy... :evil: )

I have a powder flask and a adjustable powder measure, goes from 0-35 grains, and everywhere in between.

I don't think i'll have an issue with heavy recoil if i try conicals, .30-06 makes me grin, not grimace, so i think heavy pistol recoil will have the same effect.

ok, another question. madcratebuilder, you mentioned reducing the loads for 777. now, does load reduction apply to all BP substitutes, or just 777? (and, why is that anyway? does BP substitute burn faster or something?)

Lastly... I'm gonna need to buy some more bullets really soon. the .44 roundballs come in three sizes at cabelas - should i try all the sizes to see what works best, or go with the biggest, .457 ball for superior rifling contact?

thanks

TMM
 
Lotsa good advice here already.

When you go to measure your powder, don't use a powder scale to weigh it.

Use a black powder measure.

For example: 20 grains by volume of black powder weighs a hell of a lot different than 20 grains by volume of Pyrodex.

Same goes for the other Black powder substitutes.

I use an adjustable powder measure that is available at most stores that sell BP revolvers. It is calibrated in grains black powder by volume.

After you figure out what your favorite load is for a particular gun, it is easy to make a custom sized measure by taking a brass pistol cartridge and filing off the mouth until it holds just the right amount. I have some made from .45 ACP and .38 special cases. Make a handle from a loop of copper wire soldered to the bottom of the case.

011NavyColt.gif
 
ok, another question. madcratebuilder, you mentioned reducing the loads for 777. now, does load reduction apply to all BP substitutes, or just 777? (and, why is that anyway? does BP substitute burn faster or something?)
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Triple 7 is a hotter powder than black or pyrodex and Hogden recommends reducing the load by 15%. So it you normally shot a 20grain load of black, then with triple 7 you would reduce the 20gr by 15% or 3gr, then the correct load of triple 7 is 20-3=17grains.

I use .451's in my Pietta 1851 Confederate brass frame .44. The chamber moths are .444-.445 diameter. If it takes excessive pressure to ram the ball then it is to large, go one size smaller.

It can sound confusing. You use a reduced load because it is a brass frame, then you further reduce that load because of the triple 7.

This is from Hogdens site about triple 7.

All charges of Triple Seven or Pyrodex should be measured by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable blackpowder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME.

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.
 
I don't think i'll have an issue with heavy recoil if i try conicals, .30-06 makes me grin, not grimace, so i think heavy pistol recoil will have the same effect.
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I wasn't speaking about you being able to handle the recoil of the heavier bullet - I was thinking of the brass frame. Using a heavier conical will result in heavier recoil, just the thing you're trying to avoid with the brass frame.
 
TMM said:
I don't think i'll have an issue with heavy recoil if i try conicals, .30-06 makes me grin, not grimace, so i think heavy pistol recoil will have the same effect.
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. . .

Yeah, what mykeal said.

We're not worried about your Ramboesque persona being assailed by heavy recoil, but we are worried about you bending your brass frame.
 
Well, I gave the best advice I knew how without writing enough to fill 3 chapters in a book. Between all of what I'vd read here from all of ya'll he should be off to a good start....
 
I don't think you will be able to fit a conical under the rammer on a Navy. They are made for round balls in the 44. I haven't been able to shoot any conicals in my ASM 44 Navies. Unless you remove metal from under the barrel there is not enough room for them. A 36 Navy might accommodate the smaller 36 cal conical however.
 
I don't think you will be able to fit a conical under the rammer on a Navy. They are made for round balls in the 44. I haven't been able to shoot any conicals in my ASM 44 Navies. Unless you remove metal from under the barrel there is not enough room for them. A 36 Navy might accommodate the smaller 36 cal conical however.
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Hellgate is correct, very limited room for a conical under the ram. The only one that well fit would be from a Colt mold, they made a very short conical bullet. They are a pain to ram straight. If you have a good loader, like the triple-P, then it is easier to load conical bullets.
 
hahhahhaha you have a lot of reading to do. i was in your shoes a few years ago. Now i have 5 black powder revolvers. some i did some custom work to and a black powder rifle. they are soo sooo much fun. make sure you read the very first post. black powder essentials there is a ton of information there. your going to love this thing. i started out just like you. i was also warned and sure an behold here i am with a bunch more. shooting black powder is very addictive. its soo sooo much fun too. the same gun you have i removed the bluing. or black finish. then polished it out and sanded down the grips then painted them black. it turns heads everytime i go to the range. wow your going to have so much fun
 
Why on Earth would you want to shoot conical bullets in a gun made for round balls? What is the advantage you think to gain? Brass frame means low power shooting which can be a lot of fun. Why mess it up doing things the gun is not made for?:banghead:

Relax shoot round balls and have a lot of fun.:)
 
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