ID Help Please on 200 year old pistol

[BONE]

Wondering if anybody here could tell me much about this gun and worth. So far by asking many questions I have learned that the proof is Birmingham and it was made between 1800 and 1815 by Twigg & Bass. Twigg owned the company first but then Bass came into business with him around 1800. So I hear. On one side of the gun it says London and on the other is Twigg & Bass. The proofs I thought looked like 2 swords crossed with a crown on top and a letter B below the swords where they crossed. Then I was told they are not swords but scepters. Another words a fancy cane per say. The barrel is a brass barrel and that is screws on. I wonder to why the barrels screwed on and just thought of it as a breakdown. Seems there is a better reason for it doing so. I learned the fps of this gun through another bit of information sent to me. The test where done two different ways. The patch and ball method and then the swag method. The ball and patch is all I knew about how they are loaded. I owned a .50 cal years ago and shot the heck out of it and that's all I knew about black powder guns until I bought a old one and finding out different things about our history. Anyway, the second option is that the barrel is unscrewed and a bigger ball would be put into place. I think it was a .49 dia ball versus a .42 ball that is loaded from the front of the gun. So they unscrew the barrel, add the charge, add ball to top of charge sitting on threaded end. They put the barrel back on and screw them back in and when doing so it swagged the ball into a slug shape and the gun produced more power because of the added pressure needed to get it out. The first way the round ball was shooting almost 300 fps. The second way swagged into place in jumped up to around 500 fps and heavier slug. Giving it a whooping 91 fpe. At the light load and the guy had a heavy jacket or lots of clothing it may have really just pissed a person off then killing them. Close range gun like 2 feet. LOL Well that's it for me so if anybody knows anything else please let me know and I appreciate it.

 

[alistaire]

These are called "Queen Anne" pistols. The barrel unscrews so you can load the piece; that's how it is supposed to be done. There is a book about them: The Queen Anne Pistol 1660-1780, by John W. Burgoyne.

 

[BHP FAN]

alistaire got it in one.The Durs Egg,Maker,London ones are quite valuable,the lesser makes ,less so.

 

[BHP FAN]

Durs Egg
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Durs Egg (1748–1831) was a Swiss-born British gunmaker, noted for his flintlock pistols and for his company's production of the Ferguson rifle.

Egg was apprenticed in Solothurn and Paris before establishing his own business in London in 1772. He was a contemporary of Joseph Manton and the uncle of Joseph Egg.


[edit] Trivia
A pair of Durs dueling pistols are the subject of the mystery novel The Judas Pair.


[edit] External links
Cased pair of 16-bore Durs Egg pistols, 1795 - www.johnsloughoflondon.co.uk
Durs Egg reproduction flintlock - www.jedediah-starr.com

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[BONE]

You guys are great! I'll be spend some time looking these things up. Thanks again and I'll get back to ya when I find out more.

Thanks
Terry

 

[Chawbaccer]

There are a couple guns on Gunbroker right now that bear a striking resemblence to yours.

I guess I can't link to the page. Just go to Gunbroker and search "Queen Anne"

 

[buttrap]

My guess is its a repro. the stamped steel trigger guard is a bit of a tip off

 

[DoubleDeuce 1]

The bright pin end above the trigger on the left side looks out of place. It could be a recent repair. Also, the pistols like that I have seen usually have a lug under the barrel to fit the barrel wrench over to unscrew the barrel. I wonder what might have happened to that ? Maybe some owner thought it was left over from the casting of the barrel and removed it.
Otherwise:

 

[BONE]

I noticed the bright pin as well. I thought repair or somebody took it apart and had to tap it back in which mushroomed a bit and made the shine. Or maybe another pin all together. The screw on the top rear flathead screw that holds the wood stock seems old but doesn't quite fit right. I think it's a replacement somewhere down the road. That one is old but just doesn't seem right like I said. Then the handle it has a very small crack in the wood coming out of the frame. Nothing unsoild just looks like old wood that has really cured over 200 years. I'm a machinist by trade and now retired and to me it looks old but I think I could make this gun and fake it's age by different acid treatments and such. It would take some work though...I guess this is why I would like to find an exact picture of this gun to wear it came from. Also, I can't get that barrel off and I have seen others that have had plier marks from trying to get the barrel off. I'd sure like to know but 200 years is hard to trace I guess.

Thanks for everybodys help!

Terry

 

[pohill]

I'd say it's an original because of the crown and sword stamps. What repro maker would go through that much trouble, or even have the stamps to make those marks?
Check this out:
http://davecushman.net/proofmarks.html

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

 

[Jim Watson]

Does the muzzle have notches that look like the ends of deep rifling? Some screw barrel pistols took down with a muzzle wrench instead of one engaging an outside lug that yours does not have.

I would fill the barrel up with Kroil and let it soak before trying to horse the barrel off.


Seem to be a fair number of Twiggs out there, most the size of yours have folding triggers.

 

[DrLaw]

I agree, original, but maybe not the trigger guard. If you find another like it in a museum with a similar trigger guard, then you will know. I would have guessed a brass trigger guard to go with the other brass parts.

How about it any Limey's out there from the UK, any ideas?

Otherwise, I would also agree that the gun might have used a socket key to open it.

The powder was put into the chamber revealed by the take-down of the barrel. A sightly oversized ball was then put on top of the powder. The tight fit of the ball meant that a little powder had more power in punching the ball out the barrel. This kind of gun was the concealed carry piece of its' day. The rich would have one or two of them in coat pockets.

By the way, a septer is the thing that royalty carries to mark their status as royalty. Kind of like you see on mummy cases for the Egyptians with the crossed arms carrying a staff and a staff with a crook-neck to it.

By the way, nice find.

The Doc is out now.

 

[Chawbaccer]

I am going to take a guess here and say that the trigger guard is llikely the main spring which is why it is not brass. Maybe the op can verify this.

 

[pohill]

A friend gave me some copies of old American Rifleman magazine today and in the November 1969 issue was this story: (the guns in the story are marked "London" on one side and "Dealtry" on the other. Close...).

 

[DoubleDeuce 1]

About thirty years ago, I did some minor repair work to a pistol like that. The main difference is that it was all steel. It had been purchased in England during WW II and brought home to the USA. The main spring for the lock was a "V" type spring that was attached to the grip frame.

I also noted on the pistol in the post, the top jaw and the jaw screw look to be replacements because of the unblemished appearence of the metal. Maybe it is just the photo...

At the time I worked on my friend's old original piece, I had a Navy Arms Tinderlighter. It was nearly identical in size to the antique, except it didn't have a barrel, just the cup to hold the tinder and I think a candle cup. The Navy Arms piece was all brass except for the trigger guard, trigger, hammer and frizzen, and a few screws. The top jaw fit the antique perfectly as did the jaw screw. The jaw screw was a little sloppy, but it fit.

Just a bit more to think about. Still, a cool piece.