Identity of Jesse James Guns

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BSA1

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From my thread I started on General Gun Discussions Forum. Can any of you sharp eyed members identify these guns?

They look too modern to me but Jesse James got around a lot. ;)

"Then-Senator Truman shows off a pair of pistols once owned by Jesse James to Vice President John Nance Garner, 1938. (According to the Library of Congress, "Senator Truman secured the guns in Southern Missouri from a doctor's wife, whose husband received them in payment of medical services rendered Frank James, another of the James' boys.")"

http://www.motherjones.com/files/truman-pistol630.jpg
 
First one in front appears to be a Merwin Hulbert revolver but I have no idea which model. Second one appears to be Colt SA Army with 7 1/2 barrel. I think the 44/40 round was favored by the James. Any idea what either of these revolvers was chambered in?
 
Jesse James' mother was famous for getting guns from pawn shops and selling them to suckers, along with a letter testifying they were her son's guns.

So the first question I'd ask would be, "How do you know these were Jesse James' guns? Do you have a letter from his mother?"
 
Reportedly Jesse James favored a Smith & Wesson No.3 while Frank favored the Remington Model 1875.


I think it was a Colt Pocket Model 1849 that Jesse shot off the tip of his little finger with while loading it.

Bob Wright
 
Gun number 1 appears to be shown in this Google image search: https://www.google.com/search?q=Mer...X&ved=0ahUKEwjfkKi0_K7JAhXLbD4KHfG5B80QsAQIJw

No idea on model as I have maybe seen 5 Merwin & Hulbert's in person at gun shows over the years.

Reportedly Jesse James favored a Smith & Wesson No.3 while Frank favored the Remington Model 1875.
Pretty sure that at least one of each with James ties is in the Gene Autry Museum to the best of my recollection. Also the best of my recollection the Remington 1875 was in 44/40. The S&W No. 3 I have no idea on the caliber.
 
ok.. something doesnt add up here, the pistol in the front is CLEARLY a merwin and hulbert model three or four with the top strap and obvious trigger guard.. but merwin and hulbert didnt produce the model 3 until 1883, jesse james died in '82.. so how could one of his pistols be a model that didnt exist until a year after he died?

it was always my understanding he used the smith and wesson model 3, as many "gunfighters" did for the quick reloads
 
Could be this .......

Jesse James' mother was famous for getting guns from pawn shops and selling them to suckers, along with a letter testifying they were her son's guns.

More than likely they were Frank James revolvers but maybe not Jessie's.

(According to the Library of Congress, "Senator Truman secured the guns in Southern Missouri from a doctor's wife, whose husband received them in payment of medical services rendered Frank James, another of the James' boys.")"
 
ok.. something doesnt add up here, the pistol in the front is CLEARLY a merwin and hulbert model three or four with the top strap and obvious trigger guard.. but merwin and hulbert didnt produce the model 3 until 1883, jesse james died in '82.. so how could one of his pistols be a model that didnt exist until a year after he died?

like most click bait sites... their story is often off.

Here is a link about the gun going to auction.. Same picture captioned differently.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-auction-130-years-outlaws-assassination.html


Vice President John Nance Garner points two revolvers, including the Jesse James gun, at Harry Truman in 1938. Both Truman and the guns' owner Harry B. Hawes were Missouri senators at the time
 
Howdy

Because Garner's hand is covering most of the grip, it is difficult to say exactly which model Merwin Hulbert he is holding.

What I can see is there is a top strap and there is no barrel rib. This means that it is either a Frontier Third Model or a Pocket Army Third Model. The first and second models of these revolvers had no top strap, the third models had a top strap, and the fourth models had a top strap and barrel rib.

I am lucky enough to own this pair of Frontier 3rd Models. The seven inch barrel was standard, although the MH was available with different barrel lengths. These models were chambered for a proprietary cartridge called the 44 Merwin Hulbert. They were also chambered for 44 Russian and 44-40.

This pair started out with one chambered for 44 Russian, the other chambered for 44-40. They have newly manufactured cylinders now, both chambered for 44 Russian.

merwinhulbertpair02_zps7e8082c8.jpg

merwinhulbertpair01_zps71f86cf6.jpg



It could also be a Pocket Army, Third Model. This is my Pocket Army, Second Model. Notice the lack of a top strap, the scoop flutes on the cylinder, barrel wedge, and the lack of a barrel rib. Those features define this MH as a 2nd Model. Add a top strap, loose the scoop flutes and barrel wedge and it becomes a 3rd Model. According to Art Phelps in his book The Story of Merwin Hulbert & Co. Firearms, the third models of both of these revolvers, with the top strap, and lack of the scoop flutes was first produced in 1883, and the fourth models with the barrel rib was first produced in 1887.

Pocket%20Army%20open%20Top%2004_zpsuvhj6f4u.jpg

Pocket%20Army%20open%20Top%2003_zpsxtkn5gjd.jpg

Although the grip shapes of these two revolvers are radically different, the portion showing above Garner's hand could be from either model.

The other thing I will say is that the position of Garner's trigger finger indicates that the gun may have been a double action. You will notice that all of my Merwins are single actions, but these models were available in double action models too.



*******


Yes, Jesse James' mother was well known to buy guns and pass them off as having belonged to her late son, so without a proven provenance it is difficult to state categorically what guns were actually his.



The choice of long barrels are interesting. Maybe intended for carry in pommel holsters.

7 1/2" was the only barrel length the early Colt Single Action Army revolvers were built with. Nothing to do with pommel holsters, which would define them as 'horse pistols'. The SAA was specifically designed to be a 'belt pistol' which means it was carried in a belt holster. I was not until about 1890 that 5 1/2" barrels started showing up on Colts, mostly from 7 1/2" Cavalry models that had been refurbished either by Colt or the Springfield Armory. Most of these revolvers had their barrels cut down to 5 1/2" and were issued to artillery units, hence the unofficial designation of Artillery Model.
 
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I opened this link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ssination.html

The photo of Jesse James in that link shows him holding three revolvers, two certainly Colts. One appears to be an 1860 cartridge conversion.

The photo is obviously reversed (similar to Billy the Kid's photo) as the relief for capping the nipples is on the left side of the gun, and he is holding the gun in his left hand in the photo.

Bob Wright
 
BobWright: that link did not work.

However in this link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507310/Jesse-James-Colt-45-revolver-expected-fetch-1m-auction-130-years-outlaws-assassination.html

If you look at the photo with the group of guns, the gun at the upper right is a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army, 3rd Model. You can see how similar it is to mine, complete with the 'Skull Crusher' grip. If the guns in that photo truly belonged to Jesse James, that MH could well be the same gun as the MH in John Nance Garner's hand.

In addition, the gun generally attributed to killing Jesse James is a Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three, similar to this one pictured with my 2nd model MH Pocket Army:

0New%20MOdel%20Number%20Three%20and%20Merwin%20Hulbert%20Pocket%20Army%20half%20size_zpsvowqtqah.jpg
 
Driftwood Johnson, those are very, very nice M&H pistols. Thanks for posting the pictures.

As for the picture of Jesse James in the Daily Mail, that picture is 'flipped." The Colt's 1860 Army is actually shown from its right side.

Same with the only known picture of Billy the Kid. It's flipped. His Winchester shows the loading gate on the left side, a six gun on Billy's left side, therefore Billy was "lefthanded."

Huh uh. Winchester did not make a rifle with the loading gate on the left side. "Flipping" pictures was the norm back in the day. Billy Bonny was right handed.

L.W.
 
And so did Hopkins and Allen, but the foremost gun in the picture is a MH.

Jesse and William are commonly shown in reverse because a tintype is a direct positive photograph formed in mirror image because of the typical simple camera lens. Wiki says there were some more elaborate cameras with correcting mirrors or prisms.
 
I know of a local museum which displays a Model 1873 Springfield rifle labelled as having been owned by an area notable. The august gentleman died in 1840. I am sure Discovery Channel would see that as proof of time travel, but there may be another explanation.

Jim
 
I know of a local museum which displays a Model 1873 Springfield rifle labelled as having been owned by an area notable. The august gentleman died in 1840. I am sure Discovery Channel would see that as proof of time travel, but there may be another explanation.
There's a simple explanation for that. The man was a Democrat, and he's still registered and votes in every election.:evil:
 
I didn't think of that; some of those folks were very long lived, on paper. Of course with background checks, he couldn't have bought a gun after he died, but folks don't want them for voting so he could still vote, many times.

Jim
 
It is somewhat disconcerting to read about the possessions of my remote relative.

For what it's worth, another of my family members published a book showing that most of the photographs supposedly of Jesse are obviously not him.
 
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