Inconsistent OAL with Lock N Load AP

[LKLive13]

I just started running a batch of 9mm through and I always check my first 5... ALL of them have different OALs. I am loading 147grn berrys over 3.9 of WSF... Hodgdons load page calls for an OAL of 1.169... Is it ok to have them 1.158-1.165, That was about the rang I was getting after I set my seating die to run at 1.169. What do you all think? I am still very new to all of this so if im asking a dumb question take it easy on me please! Thanks!!

 

[243winxb]

Is it ok to have them 1.158-1.165,

Yes, OK. IMO. More from Lee's website

Seating Depth Variations
Posted by on 21 October 2011 07:40 AM
There are a number of possible causes for overall length variation. One is the way it is measured. If you measure overall length from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case, remember to subtract the variation due to bullet length tolerance. The bullets will vary in length due to manufacturing tolerances (bullets with exposed lead noses are the worst in this regard) and this will add to the overall cartridge length variation. Remember that the bullet seater plug does not (or shouldn't) contact the tip of the bullet when seating, but contacts farther down the ogive. For a more accurate seating depth measurement, take the seater plug out of the bullet seating die, place it on top of the cartridge and measure from the base of the case to the top of the seater plug.

Another possible cause for bullet seating depth variation is seating and crimping at the same time when trying to apply a firm crimp to untrimmed cases. Variation in case length also causes variation in the amount of crimp applied. Long cases get a heavier crimp than short ones. When seating and crimping at the same time, the crimp is formed as the bullet is seated into the case. The crimp will form sooner on a long case, and therefore the bullet will not be seated as deeply. The solution is to seat and crimp in a separate step (the Lee Factory Crimp die is good for this) and/or trim cases to a uniform length.

The amount of force required to cycle a progressive press varies with the number of cases in the shell plate. When the shell plate is full, it is harder to lower the lever than when there are one or two cases present. This can lead to variation in cartridge overall length because there are different loads placed on the working parts of the press. When the shell plate is full, seating depth will be slightly long, because the load is higher and all of the clearances are taken up. With the shell plate nearly empty, the load is not great enough to squeeze out these clearances, and the seating depth is short.

A potential solution for this on progressive presses is to turn the sizing die in far enough so that the carrier is stopping on the bottom of the die. This removes clearance problems when no sizing but yet seating / crimping is occurring. Take special care not to turn the die in further than to just touch the shell plate and possibly just a tad more. About 1/4th of turn more is all you want to go, turning the sizing die in too far causes other problems.

 

[LKLive13]

How much hotter will it make that round using my data in the OP if I do take the OAL down that far? Current velocity is listed at 895 and a pressure of 28,400 with the OAL at 1.169... How much do you think it will increase those numbers? is there a formula you can run for a situation like this?

 

[jwrowland77]

I'd say that's acceptable. You're talking about a .007 difference. That's easily the difference in the nose of the bullet itself I'd say.

Load'em and shoot'em.

 

[LKLive13]

I'd say that's acceptable. You're talking about a .007 difference. That's easily the difference in the nose of the bullet itself I'd say.

Load'em and shoot'em.

So what would your range be... Lyman manual puts max OAL at 1.169 if im interpreting the data right and that's what the hodgdon site puts for this particular combination.

 

[243winxb]

No formula. That OAL is the maximum, you can go shorter with a starting load. Wait for another reply from someone loading that bullet. SAAMI list the minimum OAL at 1.000" and 1.169" maximum for the cartridge. Alliant lists the 147 gr. Speer GDHP bullet at a minimum OAL of 1.130"

 

[Blue68f100]

OAL is gun specific. 1.169 is max spec.

Once all stations are loaded up I only vary about 0.003". What you are getting is nothing to worry about. Bullets variations will give you more than you think. Remember your not setting the bullet by the nose tip unless your using a SWC flat bullet seater.

 

[243winxb]

147grn berrys over 3.7 of WSF would be my starting load.

 

[Bovice]

Your trick to reloading to a consistent OAL on the LNL is separating the processes. You want your high resistance processes all put together. So, I deprime/size, prime, and flare my brass in the first run of the brass. Then I drop powder, check powder, seat the bullet, and crimp.

High resistance dies cause "flex" and that's what is affecting OAL.

 

[Walkalong]

As posted, 1.169 is the Max OAL for 9MM, not the suggested load length.

.007 isn't going to hurt anything, although the better the seating stem to bullet nose fit the better the variance will be. I load most RN (Don't know what your 147 is) bullets in 9MM to 1.130 to 1.135. I am happy as long as they fall into that parameter. Most are towards the middle of it. A flat nose would generally be loaded shorter.

 

[119er]

Bovice:

Your trick to reloading to a consistent OAL on the LNL is separating the processes. You want your high resistance processes all put together. So, I deprime/size, prime, and flare my brass in the first run of the brass. Then I drop powder, check powder, seat the bullet, and crimp.

High resistance dies cause "flex" and that's what is affecting OAL.

I have found this to be the case as well, but it i adjust my setup on the fly I can usually get where I want to be within a few rounds. This is with pistol only, I do not load rifle from beginning to end with one trip through a progressive. I have also found that I need to keep tightening the two opposing allen head screws that are countersunk into the ram that retains the sub plate. These come loose and can cause a rocking motion. I also use a lock washer on my shell plates.

Finding any other way to provide consistency will help your cause. I typically sort my brass by head stamp to eliminate any variance between manufacturers. It does not guarantee same-lot type consistency but I think it helps.

 

[LKLive13]

Ok guys... Thanks for the replies... I think I will shoot them as I have them loaded and see how they do. The all chamber well in my XD and I don't think that a 147 grain RN over 3.9 grains of WSF will be bad where I have them. Someone let me know if im off track with that assumption though, I wont be able to shoot them for a couple of days.

 

[Crashbox]

I typically get about .006 or so loading on my LnL AP, nothing to sweat. If I really want to tightly control OAL, I'll sometimes do most of the operations on the LnL but do the final seating and crimping on a single-stage.

 

[BYJO4]

Make your final die adjustments when you have cases in all 5 stations. My OAL will stay within .002 of my setting with the exception of the last few rounds as the stations become empty. Even then, OAL doesn't vary enough to be concerned about.

 

[noylj]

Why not measure the COL of factory rounds, so you can relax?
Progressive presses (ALL of them) have one factor that also affects COL: whether the shell plate is full or not.
We worry about 0.010" of bullet set back. Factories warn about 0.025" set back. You are worrying about a 0.007" max deviation (+/-0.0035") and you are pointing your finger at the press--which pretty much only has all the way up and all the way down, with no deviation except operator induced.
Again, measure the bullet lengths first and you'll find at least 50% of the variation right there. Measure some factory rounds and you'll see that they usually have even MORE variation.
Measuring will answer many reloading questions.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

My OAL will stay within .002 of my setting with the exception of the last few rounds as the stations become empty.

This is how my LNL-AP is. I can stay within .003" with my OALs usually. But not always.

Check the nose profile in your seating die to make sure it fits the profile of the bullet your using. The deviation of .007" is not going to hurt your load or your gun but a LNL-AP will do better than that. I've been loading plated bullets for years, they will deform on the nose if the seating stem doesn't fit the bullet profile. This will throw the OAL all over the place.

What brand of die are you using? Lee doesn't supply both nose profile seating stems with their dies like RCBS does with their gray box carbide pistol dies.

Your press will do better than .007"variance when everything is right.

 

[Huskerguy]

I had the same concern when I fired up my LNL the first time. Once you get the shell plate full and even pressure on things, it is much more consistent. I would adjust until I had things exact running one shell at a time and then would start to run my batch only to find my OAL changed. Now I get the first ones close, keep them off to the side, get the shell plate full and adjusted and then run those first one back through just for length.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Something else I do is use spray on bullet lube with the 9mm and tumble them after their loaded to clean it off.

It make them resize so much easier and helps keep your OAL down to a minumim, usually .002-. 003". It adds and extra step of tumbling after their loaded but it takes strain off the shell plate to reduce deflection.

You'll find out the loaded ammo cleans very quickly from tumbling with the extra weight of the bullet and it doesn't hurt the ammo at all.

Don't do this with lead bullets with ALOX on them obviously.

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

One thing you guys aren't considering is wether or not the bullets have a consistent length bullet to bullet. I once drove myself crazy trying to get consistent cartridge length with a bulk bag of bullets. Last thing I did was to measure and weigh the bullets. Guess where the problem lay - in my reloading procedures/setup or in the bullets?

Sometimes to get consistency, you have to sort your bullets if you're using bulk, cheap stuff. The pricey stuff is usually better, but not perfect either. Just manufacturing variation.

 

[RAT807]

I agree with Dave on this point. I bought 200 rounds of Winchester 115 gr. FMJ and my first test loads, the OAL was all over the place. Now they are in seperate bags by bearing surface length. Shortest is .243 and longest is .269 :banghead: Ok each bag has a range of .003 in it, ex .243 - .246 Only one bag has more than 50 in it, the rest do not.

The Sierra and Hornady bullets I load were all within .003 so guess where my money is going from now on?

 

[RealGun]

I am not grasping how bullet length has any effect here. I think it would only cause variance in the insertion depth. The way I picture it, the die is set for length and does not care what fraction is contributed by either component. To get consistent volume inside the cartridge, there must indeed be some control within tolerances of the bullet length, but COL will not tell you that. COL problems then do not lead one to examination of the bullet's length.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I am not grasping how bullet length has any effect here. I think it would only cause variance in the insertion depth. The way I picture it, the die is set for length and does not care what fraction is contributed by either component. To get consistent volume inside the cartridge, there must indeed be some control within tolerances of the bullet length, but COL will not tell you that. COL problems then do not lead one to examination of the bullet's length.

If the tips of the bullets are all shaped differently it effects how the seating stem makes contact with it. Lets say you're using common round nose bullets and your seating stem is machined specifically for round nose bullets. And your test cartridge has a bullet that makes COMPLETE contact inside the seating stem, all the bullets that fit the profile of the seating stem perfectly "should" come out the exact same OAL as the test cartridge. But if you have some bullets that have a more blunt profile they are going to make perfect contact inside the seating stem and are most likely going to have a shorter COL than the others.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of other factors involved like how much crimp you put on a bullet and amount of shellplate flex, but bullets having a consistent profile help get consistent COLs.