Inherited firearms question

[orpington]

I will relate the facts as told to me, they are close to correct but I might not have asked enough questions, especially about the demise of the father or lack thereof.

A coworker asked me this. As we both own firearms. Coworker’s brother is in hospital, almost succumbed to coronavirus. Still not out of the woods. Brother is believed to have an old pistol that my coworker’s father owned. Brother’s girlfriend doesn’t want the pistol around. I believe it may be in my coworker’s possession. I’m not sure.

My coworker mentioned his father was one state away, in New Jersey. I forgot to ask, I thought his father had passed and I think this is the case, but it might be he is very old and still in poor health. I seem to think he has passed, but not sure.

A big red flag is that father lives or lived in New Jersey. My coworker said that knowing his father, pistol might have been purchased prior to GCA of 1968. May have been given to his brother or simply left there by his father without filling out a Form 4473. There is also the chance that Brother purchased legally using the Form 4473 and father is not involved at all.

1. My understanding is that Form 4473 does not track firearms by make and serial number so there is no way of tracking if Brother acquired it at a gun shop decades ago legally. Depending on where he obtained it, it might have been done legally face to face without paperwork.

2. IF brother passes away, how does girlfriend, who never had anything to do with this pistol, gift it to my coworker legally. Both are in the same state.

3. IF father is still alive, he is infirm. May not be able to get to an FFL to have FFL mail to my coworker’s FFL. Like I said, coworker’s father lives or lived in New Jersey before demise. If my coworker has to return to father if his father can even have an FFL ship to my coworker, my coworker would be committing a few felonies by possessing this pistol inside New Jersey lines.

A complicated situation based on state lines, a particular state that is involved and some ambiguity as to who actually owns the pistol.

 

[Rubone]

You need to see what your state regulations are, but if the firearm is in possession of the girlfriend, not reported stolen, it is her property to dispose of as she wishes. There is no chain of ownership on most firearms and a gift is an acceptable means of transfer unless your state requires an FFL transfer on everything. If the brother is fine with her possessing it if he passes then she can do whatever she likes.

 

[CapnMac]

@Rubone is on target here.
The State rules may be the most onerous part of this, especially if the bequest (or gift) has to cross State lines.

 

[NuShootr]

If the firearm is in NJ, and was purchased there, there is a new regulation that requires that the owner apply online for an exemption. This process is as if you are applying for a pistol permit to purchase, but there is a box on the form to check for an exemption based on being a family member. This is now the legal way to transfer ownership between family in NJ. As far as the girlfriend taking possession, I'd seriously consider talking to an attorney. The legal mumbo jumbo in NJ is atrocious.

 

[orpington]

It’s in Pennsylvania. Dear old dad was or is a resident of New Jersey. A recent thread was closed and discussed something very remotely similar. About a son taking his dads handgun across state lines and his dad owned it. Isn’t this similar?

Edit: I got confused thinking of thread mailing firearm to oneself.

BUT, this doesn’t seem right. Girlfriend can’t just give firearm to brother as what if the brother is a felon. He isn’t but what if...

same with father just leaving once upon a time or gifting pistol at brothers house. And, IF brother received as a gift from dad maybe decades ago on a trip from New Jersey to Pennsylvania, was that orthodox? Because the reverse wouldn’t be. Let’s say brother decided to gift to dad a pistol, once he crossed from Pennsylvania into New Jersey a felony was committed. And, if girlfriend gifts to potentially deceased boyfriend’s brother, wouldn’t that have to go through an FFL?

 

[NuShootr]

It’s in Pennsylvania. Dear old dad was or is a resident of New Jersey. A recent thread was closed and discussed something very remotely similar. About a son taking his dads handgun across state lines and his dad owned it. Isn’t this similar?

Edit: I got confused thinking of thread mailing firearm to oneself.

BUT, this doesn’t seem right. Girlfriend can’t just give firearm to brother as what if the brother is a felon. He isn’t but what if...

same with father just leaving once upon a time or gifting pistol at brothers house. And, IF brother received as a gift from dad maybe decades ago on a trip from New Jersey to Pennsylvania, was that orthodox? Because the reverse wouldn’t be. Let’s say brother decided to gift to dad a pistol, once he crossed from Pennsylvania into New Jersey a felony was committed. And, if girlfriend gifts to potentially deceased boyfriend’s brother, wouldn’t that have to go through an FFL?

Technically, it is important to know where the firearm was purchased. If it was purchased in NJ, the process has to be fulfilled on the NJ side. If I read this correctly, it isn't the GF's gun to give. Not yet at least.

 

[orpington]

I don’t know where it was purchased and my coworker doesn’t as well. Father last resided in New Jersey and lived in other states when younger, I think New York or Massachusetts? Not even sure if coworker’s father owned it. He ‘thinks’ his dad gave it to his brother or at least left it there. It might be that his brother purchased the pistol. My coworker doesn’t know for sure.

 

[Rubone]

It’s in Pennsylvania. Dear old dad was or is a resident of New Jersey. A recent thread was closed and discussed something very remotely similar. About a son taking his dads handgun across state lines and his dad owned it. Isn’t this similar?

Edit: I got confused thinking of thread mailing firearm to oneself.

BUT, this doesn’t seem right. Girlfriend can’t just give firearm to brother as what if the brother is a felon. He isn’t but what if...

same with father just leaving once upon a time or gifting pistol at brothers house. And, IF brother received as a gift from dad maybe decades ago on a trip from New Jersey to Pennsylvania, was that orthodox? Because the reverse wouldn’t be. Let’s say brother decided to gift to dad a pistol, once he crossed from Pennsylvania into New Jersey a felony was committed. And, if girlfriend gifts to potentially deceased boyfriend’s brother, wouldn’t that have to go through an FFL?

You are way overthinking this. The actuality is that the government has no idea where the gun is or who has it. As I said see state law, where the firearm is at the time dictates transfer, nothing else matters if it isn't stolen. If you are that concerned, the girlfriend can go to an FFL and do a 4473 to acquire it in her name than transfer it however she pleases. Lots of stupid excessive paperwork but if it helps you sleep at night , go for it.

 

[orpington]

Okay that’s what I will tell him when I see him later this week. Let’s see what he thinks.

 

[reddog81]

That's a whole pile of unknowns... For me the biggest hang-up would be that the girlfriend doesn't have the right to give away the gun at this point. Does coworker plan on giving gun back if his brother recovers? If I was in the hospital and my GF started giving away my stuff I would not be happy.

 

[orpington]

I don’t know if he has it or not. I don’t think so but the girlfriend indicated she didn’t want it around if he doesn’t make it.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

I will relate the facts as told to me, they are close to correct but I might not have asked enough questions, especially about the demise of the father or lack thereof.

A coworker asked me this. As we both own firearms. Coworker’s brother is in hospital, almost succumbed to coronavirus. Still not out of the woods. Brother is believed to have an old pistol that my coworker’s father owned. Brother’s girlfriend doesn’t want the pistol around. I believe it may be in my coworker’s possession. I’m not sure.

My coworker mentioned his father was one state away, in New Jersey. I forgot to ask, I thought his father had passed and I think this is the case, but it might be he is very old and still in poor health. I seem to think he has passed, but not sure.

A big red flag is that father lives or lived in New Jersey. My coworker said that knowing his father, pistol might have been purchased prior to GCA of 1968. May have been given to his brother or simply left there by his father without filling out a Form 4473. There is also the chance that Brother purchased legally using the Form 4473 and father is not involved at all.

1. My understanding is that Form 4473 does not track firearms by make and serial number so there is no way of tracking if Brother acquired it at a gun shop decades ago legally. Depending on where he obtained it, it might have been done legally face to face without paperwork.

2. IF brother passes away, how does girlfriend, who never had anything to do with this pistol, gift it to my coworker legally. Both are in the same state.

3. IF father is still alive, he is infirm. May not be able to get to an FFL to have FFL mail to my coworker’s FFL. Like I said, coworker’s father lives or lived in New Jersey before demise. If my coworker has to return to father if his father can even have an FFL ship to my coworker, my coworker would be committing a few felonies by possessing this pistol inside New Jersey lines.

A complicated situation based on state lines, a particular state that is involved and some ambiguity as to who actually owns the pistol.

Don't over think this. If the pistol is in Pennsylvania, then Pennsylvania law applies to it. The problem is, nobody seems to know WHERE this pistol is. You (they) need to find that out first.

Edit: PA law requires handguns to be transferred by an FFL.
https://www.psp.pa.gov/Documents/Pu...irearm_Purchasers_and_Safety-PG-2-10-2008.pdf

 

[orpington]

Okay I called my coworker this evening due to confusion abounding. Father is deceased now. IF brother doesn’t make it, girlfriend wants pistol out of the house. She stuffed it in rags under the kitchen sink. Should brother survive and he was given this by their father or the father left it there the last time he visited, what does the brother need to do if anything, to make it legal? It’s still unknown if it was the fathers pistol or one his brother bought presumably using Form 4473. My coworker says that he and his brother and father decades ago used to go to the local range a few times a year as his father liked to shoot sometimes and such opportunities were not available in urban New Jersey.

Obviously, if brother does not survive, girlfriend will have to transfer to coworker using FFL.

 

[jonnyc]

In the dim, dark past, father gave the firearm to son in PA. Son in PA gives firearm to brother in PA. Pretty sure no paper transfer is needed. Girlfriend is irrelevant.
Done.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

The brother doesn't need to do anything. As long as the pistol hasn't been reported stolen somewhere, all the Federal and Pennsylvania paperwork is done by the dealer at the time of transfer.

As far as whose pistol it originally was, that doesn't matter. Pennsylvania law, on its face, appears to assume that if you physically possess it, you own it.

 

[CapnMac]

There are a number of confusions over language here.
Ownership and Possession can be different people.
And this leads astray, far astray.

A buys [thing]: A is the Owner.

A then provides [thing] to B for use. A has transferred possession of [thing] but has not necessarily ceded ownership.

B then gifts [thing] to C. A transfer has occurred but any change of ownership can be contested by A. C is very likely to consider themselves the Owner as well as the Possessor. Unless B made clear they were not the owner.

This becomes very complicated if C subsequently decides to dispose of [thing], C is not the owner in fact, but may consider themselves so to be. A is still the owner, unless they have conveyed, by some way, that ownership.

For sake of argument, if A is decedent, typically, duties of ownership passes to A's estate (usually the executor of same).
This is why titles exist for chattels, to eliminate he said/she said hearsay. If this were a car or a boat, it's not whose driveway the thing is in, it's who is the actual owner.

In our specific case, this is complicated further by both Federal and State laws on the transfer and ownership of the [thing] involved. OP will likely need to establish just who the actual owner is, first.

 

[GEM]

Closed for staff discussion.