Interesting perspective on the French riots and "political correctness" in society

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Preacherman

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The French Jewish philosopher, Alain Finkielkraut, has an extensive interview in a recent issue of Ha'aretz, in which he talks about French reactions to the unrest among Islamic youth in that country. It's long, but very interesting reading, and can be found here. A few excerpts to whet your appetite:

... then there are the lyrics of the rap songs. Very troubling lyrics. A real call to revolt. There's one called Dr. R., I think, who sings: `I piss on France, I piss on De Gaulle' and so on. These are very violent declarations of hatred for France. All of this hatred and violence is now coming out in the riots. To see them as a response to French racism is to be blind to a broader hatred: the hatred for the West, which is deemed guilty of all crimes. France is being exposed to this now.

When an Arab torches a school, it's rebellion. When a white guy does it, it's fascism. I'm `color blind.' Evil is evil, no matter what color it is.
 
Isn't it ironic that the very society that local leftists quote as their shining example is the one that is succumbing to the very hatred leftist political thinkers have generated and justified against the West?

See what happens when you crap in your own yard? :evil:
 
Finkielkraut was one of the staunchest defenders of the controversial law prohibiting head-coverings in schools, which has roiled France in recent years.

Well, if you oppose religious freedoms and hinder people from doing things which are extremely important to them personally, and not so important to others, you will create resentment. It's wrong to bar people from wearing crosses or otherwise expressing their religious beliefs anyway and it creates exactly the kind of tension that Finkelkraut is being interviewed on.

Some more quotes from him:
First of all, they say that one synagogue has been attacked. But I think that what we've experienced is an anti-republican pogrom. They tell us that these neighborhoods are neglected and the people are in distress. What connection is there between poverty and despair, and wreaking destruction and setting fire to schools? I don't think any Jew would ever do a thing like this

"I don't think any Jew would ever do a thing like this"...this is a big source of the problem. Terrorism is what "they" do, not us, "us" (whoever "we" are: americans, Israelis, christians, germans, anyone). Wreaking destruction in order to rebel against established political discrimination is exactly what happened not too long ago in Israel. The connection between poverty and despair, and violence, I think is pretty darn well establshed...in the US included. "We don't do this" sentiments are a good way to blind yourself to your own closet-skeletons as well as to grounds for dialogue with whoever you're calling "them."

I think this interviewee is also off on the wrong track because he's identifying what is happening in Israel and Holland with what has happened with France. That to me involves a wholesale denial of what's gone on in Israel and in Algeria since World War II. Here's his framing of the problem:

This problem is the problem of all the countries of Europe. In Holland, they've been confronting it since the murder of Theo van Gogh. The question isn't what is the best model of integration, but just what sort of integration can be achieved with people who hate you

The problem with this is that the vast majority of the "people who hate you", ie, Muslims, aren't aligned with and couldn't care less for the people who murdered Van Gogh and who continue to murder people in the middle east daily. Most Palestinians are more like the Lebanese (read that, more secular) than they are like Al Zarqawi, and ignoring that fact serves only to blind us to the very real possibility of compromise. Even Hamas leadership is on record claiming that its stated (in its constitution, not its religion) goal of destroying Israel is negotiable...East Jerusalem seems to be the linchpin even for most of the radical groups. That link is here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9424469/

Any attempt to turn such divergent events as attacks in Israel and riots in Paris into some kind of worldwide "Islamic expression" will produce failed policies that, in my mind, will only endanger Israel and other minority groups in the middle east in the future. The more muslims worldwide are treated as uniformly violent and uninterested in terrorism, the more they will be discriminated against. I think it's entirely possible that in the next 50 years, the US and Europe will return to the pre World Wars era of not really caring about Jews or persecution against Jews...and then what will happen to the Israelis when the Arab world, remembering all that discrimination and daily muslim bashing in the west, can act out without any concern for Israel's western supporters?

IMO, It is a recipe for disaster to fail, at this point, to develop a way of identifying the differences in the muslim world and to deal specifically with each case. The sooner we can admit that violence is motivated by specific historical causes that differ between the various middle eastern locales, the sooner we'll be able to address effectively what's going on in Israel and in Europe. Focusing on the fact that most of these people are Muslim doesn't tell us anything more than focusing on the fact that most south american drug runners are Christian, as are most Americans, would tell us about how to deal with the social problems in South America.
 
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Focusing on the fact that most of these people are Muslim doesn't tell us anything more than focusing on the fact that most south american drug runners are Christian

And most South American drug runners aren't shouting "The Power of Christ compels you!" when they traffick in dope.
 
And most South American drug runners aren't shouting "The Power of Christ compels you!" when they traffick in dope.

Neither are most Muslims that we're talking about. That was the point. Casting them all as behaving just like the fanatics is a huge barrier to solving the problem.
 
So according to you there's no connection between the French riots and religion?

That all Muslims should not be treated as a monolithic bloc goes without saying.

There's no connection in religion between the french riots and the religion of Zarqawi, yes, absolutely. Pretending that religion is the main cause of what's going on in all these hotspots of violence around the world is one form of treating Muslims as a monolithic bloc.
 
CAnnoneer wrote:
Isn't it ironic that the very society that local leftists quote as their shining example is the one that is succumbing to the very hatred leftist political thinkers have generated and justified against the West?

Which "local leftists" are you talking about? Care to name names?
 
The problems that France faces are the direct result of the neo-marxist views that come from europe. The more they're in denial the bigger the problems get because they do nothing to fix them.

The "local leftists" are those who locally run France. It is an undeniable fact that what passes for conservative politics in France would be the extreme left in the United States. That "local left".

This is what happens when you make your country a socialists hell hole. This is why we must not let it happen here.
 
javafiend said:
Which "local leftists" are you talking about? Care to name names?

Paltrow, Depp? A bunch of my suburban mocca-guzzling middle-class anti-gun social-theorist colleagues? Every sophomoric college student that watches BBC too much, drinks wine instead of beer, and believes Paris is the cultural center of the world while America is rustic, boorish, and fascist?
 
Well, if you oppose religious freedoms and hinder people from doing things which are extremely important to them personally, and not so important to others, you will create resentment. It's wrong to bar people from wearing crosses or otherwise expressing their religious beliefs anyway and it creates exactly the kind of tension that Finkelkraut is being interviewed on.
There were lots of problems in French schools with muslim men trying to force women to wear head scarves who didn't want to wear them. Even non-muslims. Some women were wearing them out of fear in some places. I had been reading about problems at French schools for a few years now. I don't think that law created the riots.

I think religion has some component to the problem, but the other side of it is French elitism combined with French socialism creating a situation where a bunch of young muslim men isolated in neighborhoods have nothing better to do than join gangs and find people to hate. Why become French when France has let them in but then shunned them?
 
C'est vrai

"It's interesting, because when I speak the way I'm speaking now, a lot of people agree with me. Very many. But there's something in France - a kind of denial whose origin lies in the bobo, in the sociologists and social workers - and no one dares say anything else."

Quite true. Here we call it being "Politically correct." :barf:
 
but the other side of it is French elitism combined with French socialism creating a situation where a bunch of young muslim men isolated in neighborhoods have nothing better to do than join gangs and find people to hate. Why become French when France has let them in but then shunned them?

Anyone know the school drop-out rate among young Muslims in France? I hear it's high. That might have something to do with the problem.
 
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