Preacherman
Member
Hi, folks. I was at a local range yesterday, and several of us were carrying in the pocket. Guns involved included three S&W 442/642's, a Kahr MK9, a Colt Detective Special, a Beretta Tomcat (.32 ACP), and two Kel-Tec P3AT's.
A question arose as to how fast and accurately a pocket gun could be got into use in a close-quarters encounter (e.g. someone literally "in-your-face", less than 3 yards away). We decided to experiment, and over the course of an hour or so, all eight of us drew and fired on such a target from the hip and from the shoulder, drawing from the pocket, to see how quickly and accurately we could get our shots off. We also traded guns back and forth, so that all of us had an opportunity to try at least one draw-and-shoot exercise with each of the guns involved.
Somewhat to my surprise, starting with our hands at our sides, the revolvers were MUCH faster than the pistols "on the draw". It seems that it's much easier to obtain a drawing grip on a revolver butt in the pocket than the flat, small pistol butts, which often were so tightly pressed against the leg or hip that it took extra time to obtain an adequate grip. If our hands were pre-positioned in our pockets, with a grip on the gun, ready to draw, the pistols drew level with the revolvers in this respect. However, one might not have sufficient warning in a real-life encounter to pre-position one's hand...
As far as speed of draw (timed from the "Go!" buzzer to the first shot), it's clear that pocket carry is rather slower than drawing from a holster on the waist. It took an average of about 2-2½ seconds for most of the revolver shooters to get off an accurate shot from the start position, standing fully relaxed and unprepared, with our hands at our sides. The pistol shooters added at least half a second to this time, due to the drawing problems noted above. Most of us incorporated movement into our drills - i.e. fending off the "attacker" with the left hand while drawing with the right, moving away from the attacker while drawing (although this slowed down the draw - it's difficult to get your hand into your pocket while moving and concentrating on an opponent), etc.
Accuracy was a major problem. Given the very-close-quarters nature of the encounter, we tried both sighted and unsighted shooting. Shooting from the hip, or a protected position, accuracy was almost always lousy - COM hits were the exception rather than the rule. If the shooter took the time to come to a position suitable for aimed shots, the accuracy improved enormously - but at such close quarters, the gun was also placed in a position where the attacker would be able to grab it if he/she had sufficiently fast reflexes. This caused many of us to ponder...
I had by far the best accuracy results, for one simple reason. My carry snubs all wear Crimson Trace grips. From the draw, the laser dot is on instantly, and it's truly no problem to put the dot where I want to hit and squeeze off multiple rounds. I was able to get off five COM hits, or two COM and one to the head, in less than 2 seconds (timed from first shot to last shot) using the laser dot. No-one else came close to this time for accurate shots. It's confirmed my belief that for down-and-dirty, close-quarters fighting, these laser grips are by far the most innovative and useful accessory to come down the pike in the past decade.
One of the RO's had a Glock 26 equipped with the Lasermax internal guide rod laser, so we tried that in the pocket as a test to compare it with the Crimson Trace unit. (Obviously, being a Glock, we unloaded it for the test, relying on dry-fire - that trigger safety is NOT pocket-safe without a holster covering the trigger-guard!
) It was not nearly as fast as the CT units, as activating the laser required a finger to be used on the takedown switch, requiring a two-hand hold. This meant that the "spare" hand could not be used to fend off the attacker, as it was being used to activate the laser. Again, big, big plus points to the Crimson Trace approach, which is activated by the hand on the grip.
Overall, it was a very interesting exercise. Has anyone done anything similar?
A question arose as to how fast and accurately a pocket gun could be got into use in a close-quarters encounter (e.g. someone literally "in-your-face", less than 3 yards away). We decided to experiment, and over the course of an hour or so, all eight of us drew and fired on such a target from the hip and from the shoulder, drawing from the pocket, to see how quickly and accurately we could get our shots off. We also traded guns back and forth, so that all of us had an opportunity to try at least one draw-and-shoot exercise with each of the guns involved.
Somewhat to my surprise, starting with our hands at our sides, the revolvers were MUCH faster than the pistols "on the draw". It seems that it's much easier to obtain a drawing grip on a revolver butt in the pocket than the flat, small pistol butts, which often were so tightly pressed against the leg or hip that it took extra time to obtain an adequate grip. If our hands were pre-positioned in our pockets, with a grip on the gun, ready to draw, the pistols drew level with the revolvers in this respect. However, one might not have sufficient warning in a real-life encounter to pre-position one's hand...
As far as speed of draw (timed from the "Go!" buzzer to the first shot), it's clear that pocket carry is rather slower than drawing from a holster on the waist. It took an average of about 2-2½ seconds for most of the revolver shooters to get off an accurate shot from the start position, standing fully relaxed and unprepared, with our hands at our sides. The pistol shooters added at least half a second to this time, due to the drawing problems noted above. Most of us incorporated movement into our drills - i.e. fending off the "attacker" with the left hand while drawing with the right, moving away from the attacker while drawing (although this slowed down the draw - it's difficult to get your hand into your pocket while moving and concentrating on an opponent), etc.
Accuracy was a major problem. Given the very-close-quarters nature of the encounter, we tried both sighted and unsighted shooting. Shooting from the hip, or a protected position, accuracy was almost always lousy - COM hits were the exception rather than the rule. If the shooter took the time to come to a position suitable for aimed shots, the accuracy improved enormously - but at such close quarters, the gun was also placed in a position where the attacker would be able to grab it if he/she had sufficiently fast reflexes. This caused many of us to ponder...
I had by far the best accuracy results, for one simple reason. My carry snubs all wear Crimson Trace grips. From the draw, the laser dot is on instantly, and it's truly no problem to put the dot where I want to hit and squeeze off multiple rounds. I was able to get off five COM hits, or two COM and one to the head, in less than 2 seconds (timed from first shot to last shot) using the laser dot. No-one else came close to this time for accurate shots. It's confirmed my belief that for down-and-dirty, close-quarters fighting, these laser grips are by far the most innovative and useful accessory to come down the pike in the past decade.
One of the RO's had a Glock 26 equipped with the Lasermax internal guide rod laser, so we tried that in the pocket as a test to compare it with the Crimson Trace unit. (Obviously, being a Glock, we unloaded it for the test, relying on dry-fire - that trigger safety is NOT pocket-safe without a holster covering the trigger-guard!
) It was not nearly as fast as the CT units, as activating the laser required a finger to be used on the takedown switch, requiring a two-hand hold. This meant that the "spare" hand could not be used to fend off the attacker, as it was being used to activate the laser. Again, big, big plus points to the Crimson Trace approach, which is activated by the hand on the grip.Overall, it was a very interesting exercise. Has anyone done anything similar?
