1KPerDay
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Hodgdon has data for Clays and Universal but not International. Am I missing something here?
International. What's it good for handgun wise?
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
I believe unlike Universal or Clays that International:
is pretty much as described, a shotgun shell powder. I don't see its use in handgun like the other two of three Clays powders. I have never seen it called out for handgun anyway?
Ron
is pretty much as described, a shotgun shell powder. I don't see its use in handgun like the other two of three Clays powders. I have never seen it called out for handgun anyway?
Ron
From what I have read, International started out with data for shotgun and some handgun loads.
But soon afterwards, they dropped the handgun data after finding out that the powder tends to spike at times.
There are some that will tell you it is okay to load 38s and 45s with it. But you do it at your own risk.
Edit: ADI, the maker of the Clay lineup is said to have added a process to their International (AS50N), to tame down the spiking.
http://adi-limited.com/handloaders/equivalents.asp
But soon afterwards, they dropped the handgun data after finding out that the powder tends to spike at times.
There are some that will tell you it is okay to load 38s and 45s with it. But you do it at your own risk.
Edit: ADI, the maker of the Clay lineup is said to have added a process to their International (AS50N), to tame down the spiking.
http://adi-limited.com/handloaders/equivalents.asp
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Dudedog
Contributing Member
If you look at Hodgdons MSDS it is listed as AS50N. If you look at ADIs web site (ADI produces it) they used to list a few loads for it,(cowboy type maybe is what I seem to recall) but I don't remember in what.
I didn't see anything listed now when I did a quick check.
AP50N is a different powder that we don't see here and it's listed for lots of handgun loads.
I don't know why there are not more listed loads (if there are still any) for AS50N in handgun. The speed seems like it would be ideal for handgun rounds. Maybe it does not behave well at higher than shotgun pressures, is spikey,??
Maybe as simple as just not tested?
There has to be some reason as they list lots of loads for Clays which is faster and Universal which is slower but not International.
I am curious why it does not have more listed loads and if anybody knows I would like to hear the answer.
I have seen some comments that AS50N is the same as AP50N just a different density, but that does not make a lot of sense to me as different density = different powder.
Alliant American Select seems about the same speed as Titegroup and Alliant does not list loads for it in handgun and 20/28 is about the same spped as HP38 so one would think they would work for lots of handgun rounds but I don't see any listed.
I think it's a
conspiracy by shotgun reloaders to keep these powders from being used in pistol calibers.
I didn't see anything listed now when I did a quick check.
AP50N is a different powder that we don't see here and it's listed for lots of handgun loads.
I don't know why there are not more listed loads (if there are still any) for AS50N in handgun. The speed seems like it would be ideal for handgun rounds. Maybe it does not behave well at higher than shotgun pressures, is spikey,??
Maybe as simple as just not tested?
There has to be some reason as they list lots of loads for Clays which is faster and Universal which is slower but not International.
I am curious why it does not have more listed loads and if anybody knows I would like to hear the answer.
I have seen some comments that AS50N is the same as AP50N just a different density, but that does not make a lot of sense to me as different density = different powder.
Alliant American Select seems about the same speed as Titegroup and Alliant does not list loads for it in handgun and 20/28 is about the same spped as HP38 so one would think they would work for lots of handgun rounds but I don't see any listed.
I think it's a
conspiracy by shotgun reloaders to keep these powders from being used in pistol calibers.
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Correct, just posted link to show AS50N and AP50N listing.
Dudedog, if I find the link that refers to the different process between the 2, I'll post it
cougar1717
Member
Wild conjectures here, but with the name "international" and ADI's description that it's main purpose is 28 gram loads in 12ga going 1300-1350fps, it's a powder made for a very specific purpose - the international shotgun games. It's probably not much different in that respect from Superperformance or Leverevolution - it's made for something specific, but where it works, it works well.
A second conjecture is to not totally confuse everyone looking for pistol data by having Clays, International, and Universal marketed as a handgun powder. It's confusing enough for people out of the know since all three have clays in the name and the primary use is for shotgun shells. From a marketing perspective, it doesn't make sense to have two powders close to each other for the exact same purpose (think Titegroup/Titewad).
A third wild conjecture is that maybe it's just not that good as a handgun powder to publish data for it. If they just had cowboy loads originally listed and then "unpublished" them, there must have been a reason. Or maybe it's similar, but opposite, when people tried to use Leverevolution to load 308 because it's in the right burn range, only to find out that they need more volume than the case has in order to have sufficient pressure.
Just my .02 of guesses
A second conjecture is to not totally confuse everyone looking for pistol data by having Clays, International, and Universal marketed as a handgun powder. It's confusing enough for people out of the know since all three have clays in the name and the primary use is for shotgun shells. From a marketing perspective, it doesn't make sense to have two powders close to each other for the exact same purpose (think Titegroup/Titewad).
A third wild conjecture is that maybe it's just not that good as a handgun powder to publish data for it. If they just had cowboy loads originally listed and then "unpublished" them, there must have been a reason. Or maybe it's similar, but opposite, when people tried to use Leverevolution to load 308 because it's in the right burn range, only to find out that they need more volume than the case has in order to have sufficient pressure.
Just my .02 of guesses
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1KPerDay
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Lame
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1KPerDay
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so is clays, so is universal, so is red dot, so is green dot, so is American select, etc etc etc. all are excellent handgun powders also.
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1KPerDay
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Thought this thread was interesting.
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=179138
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=179138
On the topic of International. When I first got into reloading, my BIL had an 8 lber. unopened International and we both kind of got it confused with Universal. Okay, no kind of about it, I did get confused. Before I realized our mistake, I had agreed to purchase it from him. Not one on backing out of a deal, I bought/traded for it.
Over the last 3 years I searched/read up on the limited info from people who say they use it in 38s and 45s. I read of people who had talked with Hodgdon reps. People who posted pictures of the older containers showing some handgun loads.
The ones that reload with it feel it is safe. Hodgdon says it tends to pressure spike.
But I have not found one published load for International. Even AmmoGuide, which I am a member of, and has a tally of 28,400 loads, list nothing for International in any cartridge.
So, my 8 lbs. sits here collecting dust. Maybe it will serve as a reminder not to get too hasty on commitments.
Over the last 3 years I searched/read up on the limited info from people who say they use it in 38s and 45s. I read of people who had talked with Hodgdon reps. People who posted pictures of the older containers showing some handgun loads.
The ones that reload with it feel it is safe. Hodgdon says it tends to pressure spike.
But I have not found one published load for International. Even AmmoGuide, which I am a member of, and has a tally of 28,400 loads, list nothing for International in any cartridge.
So, my 8 lbs. sits here collecting dust. Maybe it will serve as a reminder not to get too hasty on commitments.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
kcofohio
Trade to it to a shotgun reloader maybe?
Looks like it can be used 20 and 12 gauge loads just not pistol.
Thanks for the info on it being spikey in pistol.
Maybe just not designed to operate at higher pressures.
Trade to it to a shotgun reloader maybe?
Looks like it can be used 20 and 12 gauge loads just not pistol.
Thanks for the info on it being spikey in pistol.
Maybe just not designed to operate at higher pressures.
I did post it in the Buy, Sell, Trade reloading forum once. No takers in my area.kcofohio
Trade to it to a shotgun reloader maybe?
Looks like it can be used 20 and 12 gauge loads just not pistol.
Thanks for the info on it being spikey in pistol.
Maybe just not designed to operate at higher pressures.
You're right, I do need to see if I can post it at my gun club. They do trap and skeet shoots.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Hope you find someone. I would hate for 8lbs of powder to get lonely sitting on a shelf unused.
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1KPerDay
Member
. If anyone does have access to data, even older cowboy data for .45 Colt or the like, please post a link. Or pics of the older labels
In this link, a poster mentioned about "Hodgdon Cowboy Manual" having International listed for 38 Spl, 44 Spl. and 45 Colt.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?49822-hodgdon-international-clays-in-45-acp
If somebody has a copy of said manual, printed say before 2003. My sample of International has a lot # from mid 2003. It only shows loads for 12 & 20 ga.
1kPerDay, I have a folder in my favorites with saved links for International. But none with label pictures.
As a side note, I had told myself that I wouldn't develop loads for this powder until I got a chrony. That was when there was no powder on the market. Now I have a chrony, but also nearly 30 lbs. of handgun powder, not including the International.
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1KPerDay
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Well after some significant Googling I finally tracked down some published data for International from the Hodgdon Cowboy Manual. Has loads for .38 special, .44 special, .44 magnum, .45 Colt.
I'm not sure if Hodgdon would still endorse this info so take it for what it's worth.
http://www.pulverlehrgang.de/Downloads/Ladedaten/CowboyManualHodgdon.pdf
I'm not sure if Hodgdon would still endorse this info so take it for what it's worth.
http://www.pulverlehrgang.de/Downloads/Ladedaten/CowboyManualHodgdon.pdf
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Ah nice to know I am not getting completely senile yet.
I thought I saw cowboy loads for it once.
I thought I saw cowboy loads for it once.
Mad Chemist
Member
The Internationale?
It's a good song to sing with fellow travelers while celebrating the virtue of the proletariat and mourning the untimely demise of Trotsky.
Or one can sing it with all the fart-sniffers at the Bernie Sanders rally too.
Oh wait! You were asking about gunpowder. Sorry, my bad.
It's a good song to sing with fellow travelers while celebrating the virtue of the proletariat and mourning the untimely demise of Trotsky.
Or one can sing it with all the fart-sniffers at the Bernie Sanders rally too.
Oh wait! You were asking about gunpowder. Sorry, my bad.
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