Captain*kirk
Member
I use the new (yellow) Lee dippers to load BPCR. They work very well in conjunction with the handy slide rule tool that comes with the set.
Introducing Black powder Cartridge Shooting
- Thread starter Dave T
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I would strongly counsel that you look up such terms when used on the Board.
They are used for a reason -- BP especially.
if you are to play in the game." or how about this one - " Don't let science and mathematics frighten you. The world is a big place." I've shot BP from 1970 at local matches and on the National range and have never heard anyone say " I was shooting 2.5cc of 3F. Never, be it the slug gun, bench rest, off hand rifle, pistol, or shotgun games, it's always how many grains of powder was being shot, and that's by volume. So now after 50+ years of shooting BP I'm having someone here tell me if I want to play the game or don't let sciense or math frighten me just because I don't measure my loads by CCs. You've got to be kidding me. Why is it more scientific or mathematically correct to use CCs instead of grains ? How many old or new adjustable measures are marked off in CCs ? Or are they still, unscientifically marked in grains ? Just because some use a Lee dipper marked with CCs on the side and it's too much trouble for them to say what it is in grains doesn't make it proper, right, or the way to make a post.
There's nothing scientific about measuring BP. The problem Mike has in the video is hunters don't walk around with a scale. Neither do competitive shooter in line matches. They know how much powder by volume it takes for a good load and it doesn't matter if it's 65.8 grains, or 65 grains. And they call it by what it measures out by volume, NOT weight. When I was shooting pistol matches I'd use 20grs at the 25 yard line, and 25 at the 50 for the same point of impact. That was good enough to get me in the Master class. Back then we'd use a powder flask and our finger over the correct nozzle.
Driftwood, you call it what you want, the other 99% of BP shooters still call it so many grains by volume. Is it exact, no, but BP shooting is about having fun. And very good scores can be shot by measuring powder by volume. JMHOs.
I would strongly counsel that you look up such terms when used on the Board.
They are used for a reason -- BP especially.
if you are to play in the game." or how about this one - " Don't let science and mathematics frighten you. The world is a big place." I've shot BP from 1970 at local matches and on the National range and have never heard anyone say " I was shooting 2.5cc of 3F. Never, be it the slug gun, bench rest, off hand rifle, pistol, or shotgun games, it's always how many grains of powder was being shot, and that's by volume. So now after 50+ years of shooting BP I'm having someone here tell me if I want to play the game or don't let sciense or math frighten me just because I don't measure my loads by CCs. You've got to be kidding me. Why is it more scientific or mathematically correct to use CCs instead of grains ? How many old or new adjustable measures are marked off in CCs ? Or are they still, unscientifically marked in grains ? Just because some use a Lee dipper marked with CCs on the side and it's too much trouble for them to say what it is in grains doesn't make it proper, right, or the way to make a post.
There's nothing scientific about measuring BP. The problem Mike has in the video is hunters don't walk around with a scale. Neither do competitive shooter in line matches. They know how much powder by volume it takes for a good load and it doesn't matter if it's 65.8 grains, or 65 grains. And they call it by what it measures out by volume, NOT weight. When I was shooting pistol matches I'd use 20grs at the 25 yard line, and 25 at the 50 for the same point of impact. That was good enough to get me in the Master class. Back then we'd use a powder flask and our finger over the correct nozzle.
Driftwood, you call it what you want, the other 99% of BP shooters still call it so many grains by volume. Is it exact, no, but BP shooting is about having fun. And very good scores can be shot by measuring powder by volume. JMHOs.
Jim Watson
Member
I shot BPCR for a good while. Most of us followed the recommendation of the Sharps Rifle Co (the one in the 19th century):
"For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." The pure volume shooters were using the same sort of measure and technique that a modern benchrest shooter does for nitro.
"For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." The pure volume shooters were using the same sort of measure and technique that a modern benchrest shooter does for nitro.
Jim Watson
Member
That's a lot of work to shoot 50 - 100 yards.
Jackrabbit1957
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I use the Lee dippers quite a bit myself, I don't pay that metric nonsense any attention whatsoever, there's this neat little chart thing on the slider widget that shows what each dipper holds in grains. If I have doubts I get out a scale and weigh the amount in the dipper and see what it throws...metric schmetric.
Trey Veston
Member
Just loaded up 50 rounds of .45-70 govt. BP rounds using 500 grain cast boolits and 65 grains of Goex FFG...
I used to compete in BPCR matches in Phoenix when I lived in AZ. Moved up North ten years ago and haven't shot the rifle since. Friend invited me to a long range precision rifle match a couple of weeks ago and they were shooting at steel silhouettes between 200 and 700 yards away using super fancy bolt guns and giant scopes. I remarked that I thought I could hit a few of those targets with my buffalo gun using peep sights and the organizer invited me to try at the next match. So will be doing some sighting in and getting familiar with the rifle again before the match.
I will be sure to ask to be placed downwind of the other shooters, since my BP cloud will likely not be very welcome, lol.
I used to compete in BPCR matches in Phoenix when I lived in AZ. Moved up North ten years ago and haven't shot the rifle since. Friend invited me to a long range precision rifle match a couple of weeks ago and they were shooting at steel silhouettes between 200 and 700 yards away using super fancy bolt guns and giant scopes. I remarked that I thought I could hit a few of those targets with my buffalo gun using peep sights and the organizer invited me to try at the next match. So will be doing some sighting in and getting familiar with the rifle again before the match.
I will be sure to ask to be placed downwind of the other shooters, since my BP cloud will likely not be very welcome, lol.
How many minutes of angle are those silhouettes at their various ranges,
and do they have decent contrast against the background ?
If you can discern ("see" with extra letters) them through the aperture well
enough to put the front sight/post on them, you should do just fine.
Whose bullet it that? It looks too sleek to be a Postell.
.
and do they have decent contrast against the background ?
If you can discern ("see" with extra letters) them through the aperture well
enough to put the front sight/post on them, you should do just fine.
Whose bullet it that? It looks too sleek to be a Postell.
.
Jackrabbit1957
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Ain't nothing like lobbing bowling balls at steel silhouettes! Bet those 500 grain bullets are gonna get some attention, how bad does the rifle thump you with those?
Jim Watson
Member
The critters are about 5 moa x 6 moa, very irregular.
Berms are usually graveled or if dirt are limed for contrast with black targets. They are painted after every shooter.
The targets should be close to the berm so your spotter can call misses effectively and the bullet splash will usually show on the target before it falls over.
There is also BPCR Target on the usual 200, 300, 600 yard paper targets with a pit crew marking hits.
Enough thump that I shot a .38-55-335 until I got tired of hit rams not falling, then I went to .40-65-404 because I did not want to shoot 60-70 of the usual 500+ grain bullets in a morning.
Captain*kirk
Member
Postells are round nose 535gr.
Jim Watson
Member
Might be a Snover, might be a Money Bullet.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I will venture to say that during all those years of BPCR shooting you were probably using the same brand and granulation of powder. Otherwise, you really don't know how much powder you were using. If you consult my chart you will see that different brands of Black Powder vary by weight.
I did an experiment not too long ago weighing the charges thrown from one of these BP measures. I set the powder measure for 40 grains/volume, then weighed the charge. I threw a bunch of charges, then averaged them. I only have Schuetzen FFg on hand these days, but I guarantee you that if I had tested other powders, the weight would have varied, probably by a few grains.
Of course I understand that nobody is going to be weighing charges in the field while hunting. I have been shooting Black Powder since 1968, so I also realize that 1/2 grain here or there will not make much difference in velocity. My poor eyesight and less then stellar marksmanship abilities have never put me in the top rank of long distance shooting with my Sharps anyway. I have not fired a muzzle loader in quite a few years now, all my BP shooting has been done with cartridges for the last 20 years or so.
I have the luxury of loading my BP cartridges at home on a progressive press with a Lyman BP measure mounted on it. The BP measure of course dispenses powder by volume, not by weight, just like any other powder measure.
I have several rotors that fit my powder measure. I cannibalize them from from old Lyman Smokeless powder measures that I occasionally find on the white elephant table at gunshows. That way I can change calibers quickly and easily by popping a different rotor into the powder measure for each cartridge, without having to adjust anything. I keep each rotor set for the standard charges (by volume of course) that I use in my BP cartridges. When I first started loading BP into cartridges about 20 years ago, I was hand dipping my powder with the Lee dippers. So I kept track of the different charges I was using for each cartridge by the number of Cubic Centimeters I was throwing with my dippers. When I bought the Lyman BP measure it was natural for me to set each rotor to the standard CC charges I had been using.
In my reloading notebook I keep track of the charges I use by recording both the grain weight of the powder and the Cubic Centimeters of each charge.
I am still dipping powder by hand for 38-40 because I do not yet have a rotor set up for my 38-40 powder charge.
I am still dipping powder by hand for my 12 gauge Black Powder shotgun shells because I do not have a rotor for that charge, and it is simpler and quicker to dip the charges than to go back and forth to the Lyman BP measure and my old MEC Jr.
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Appalachiannative
Member
If I take my wife out shooting and I put .38 special in the .357 magnum she says "why didn't you get the good bullets!? These aren't as fun"
Roverguy
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Lyndon Johnson said the comfort level was right around 23-25 grs of Fffg BP and a 200 grs Big Lube. And he was a tough old boot. Makes smoke and fire, clangs on steel, makes a pound canister last long enough. I believe that’s the 1.6cc Lee dipper, a Godsend for loading BP pistol rounds.
Captain*kirk
Member
So, @Driftwood...when you measure by volume do you fill the dipper and shake off the excess, scrape it level with a straight edge or just consider a full scoop "good"? Me, I've been overfilling the dipper a little, tapping on the edge of the dish and letting the excess fall off. Seems to work pretty good so far. But if you have a better way, please tell me. I'm fairly new to BPCR.
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Jackrabbit1957
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I use the dippers as well, I just scrape off the excess even with the top with my finger.
Roverguy
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The great thing about black powder pistol rounds is that the difference between a light scoop and a heavy scoop is only about 2-4 grs, depending on whether you are at the light end or heavy end of the spectrum. While that would be dangerously significant with smokeless powder, it just isn’t that significant for BP pistol rounds. And if you can get consistent with scooping, harder than one might think, you can cut that difference in half. The difference in weight between a flat top scoop and a convex scoop that are otherwise of similar density is almost certainly less than two flat top scoops of different density. The Lee dippers make loading BP rounds so easy.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
What ever you do, try to be consistent from charge to charge.
If you watch the video posted earlier, I do exactly what Mike Beliveau did. I pour out about 1/2 pound of powder into a coffee mug, then I scoop the dipper through the powder just like scooping ice cream out of a container. Then holding the dipper over the mug I take an index card and scrape the excess back into the mug. I do not tap the dipper to settle the charge.
If you look at my photos of my set up on my progressive press, you will see there is a handle on the Black Powder measure. That is where I load most of my Black Powder cartridges. I throw the powder charges manually, and always strive to rotate the handle consistently every time. That will affect how consistently the powder measure fills the rotors.
While I agree that Black Powder is much more forgiving than Smokeless of a variation of a couple of grains here or there, the more consistently I scoop out the powder, the more consistent my cartridges will be. This is true with Smokeless too. When loading Smokeless with a conventional powder measure, I always try to throw the charging lever the same way each time. This helps keep my charges the same.
Captain*kirk
Member
I will adapt the index card idea...I like that! Also I will probably stop tapping down the charge (I don't do that on the Sharps cartridges anyway as I use a compression die).
Thanks for the suggestions!
whughett
Member
So are they still 45/70 or now 45/65.
CopperClad
Member
45/70-5 a mathematical messSo are they still 45/70 or now 45/65.
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