Is S&B Brass. well what do you think of it?

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1. Commercial SAAMI .303 British cartridge cases are not made to British military standards.
2. The military Enfield chamber was reamed longer to make room for the mud of Flanders in WWI and does NOT match civilian commercial SAAMI standards.

When civilian commercial cartridge cases are fired in a military chamber with longer headspace settings you WILL get case stretching in the base web area.

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The best surplus military ammunition you will find for reloading is Greek HXP ammunition. The best present day commercial cartridge cases are Prvi Partizan, they have thicker rims, a larger base diameter and thicker case walls.

Under normal conditions you could fire form your cases by seating your bullets long jamming into the rifling or making a false shoulder on the unfired case and headspacing on the shoulder. The problem is the Enfield rifle is long throated and seating your bullets long doesn't work and a false shoulder stresses the neck and can cause cracked necks.

Below is an old trick a Canadian taught me on fire forming cartridge cases for the military Enfield rifle. A rubber o-ring is slipped over the cartridge and pushed against the rim, the o-ring holds the case against the bolt face and the case will not stretch in the base web area when fired.

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After fire forming your .303 cases you must neck size only or you will have case head separations, this allows the case to headspace on the shoulder and be held against the bolt face.

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Below is a Wilson .303 case gauge and has a case inserted that was fired in a Enfield military chamber. The amount the cartridge is sticking above the gauge is how far the "military" chamber was reamed and lengthened in WWI and how "FAR" you will push the shoulder back if you full length resize your cases.

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When fire forming cases I use .312 pistol bullets with reduced loads, I remove the extractor because the o-ring when compressed will center the case in the chamber and help promote equal case expansion and aid in accuracy.

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Below and a note on headspace, military headspace is .064 to .074, with an American made cartridge case at maximum military headspace you can have as much as .016-.017 head clearance or "air space" between the bolt face and rear of the case. This is "why" your cases do not last long when reloaded, a Enfield forum member reached over 32 reloadings using the o-ring method of fire forming before he had is first case neck split. (NO case head separations)

With the Enfield below and several bolt heads I have set the headspace from .059 to .084 testing cases and stretching in the web area. It is far simpler to keep your existing bolt head and use the rubber o-ring than trying to find longer bolt heads that might not solve the problem and are getting more costly to find.

O-ring size will depend on headspace and type o-ring, lube your locking lugs to ease bolt closing and lube the o-ring so the o-ring will "crush and flow" and center your cases in the chamber. (American cases have small base diameters and can end up off center when chambered)

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Don't blame the British Enfield rifle for civilian commercial cartridge case standards, even the European CIP the counter part to our American SAAMI list the the .303 cartridge as having "problematic headspace" with depth of rim recess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem

Below is a factory Winchester cartridge fired in a 1943 Maltby Enfield with a No.3 bolt head with the headspace set at .067 (as tight as it is ever going to be unless I replace the bolt) and this case stretched .009 in the web area and would only last two or three reloadings.

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The problem is the small base diameter of our American .303 cartridge cases and the headspace which allows the case to stretch badly in two directions at once. The second problem is factory ammunition is downloaded to below 43,000 cup or the lower chamber pressure of early .303 ammunition because these older Enfields are still being used. When you load these cases over 43,000 cup they fall apart very quickly.

If you reload your best bet is to use Prvi Partizan cartridge cases because they are built Ford Tough. :rolleyes:

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If you can't find Prvi ammunition then Remington cases would be my second choice BUT proper fire forming will make your cases last much longer.

Don't blame the Enfield rifle or its rear locking lugs, the fault lies with our wimpy commercial cases being fired in a large military chamber. (your parking a VW Beetle in a blimp size hangar) ;)
 
I've had (7) 9mm cases get stuck in my Lee de-priming die because the head stripped off in the shell holder. Also had 1 jam in the crimp die, nothing more fun than clearing a fully loaded round from a crimp die! Needles to say S&B goes to the scap for recycle.
 
Walkalong:

I use a large magnet. It only takes a minute. Try it if you are interested in using the S&B 9mm brass.

I did the same for a while, but I sort by headstamp and get very little S&B compared to those that I use regularly. S&B might be 1-2% of my range pickups. If I lose my practice range where brass is the ground cover, I'll probably whistle a different tune.
 
BigEd,
That's the best, most comprehensive treatment of the 303 headspace issue I have ever seen, bar none. I am going to take a round to the hardware store & find the correct sized o-ring for the case (fired and unfired). Do you use this only on new cases or once-fired, too? Obviously, it would be best to begin on new cases, but I have a goood supply of Greek HXP & am not really inclined to pull the bullets, etc. I do have a pile of once-fired HXP & it sounds like it couldn't hurt... Have you ever used lead bullets to fire-form? Missouri Bullets sells a 100 gr RNSP sized .313 & designed for the 32 H&R and it looks it would be ideal, both size & cost-wise.

This opens the old soldiers up to a new life from the safe-sitting they do the majority of the time - many thanks for the time and effort, and best regards!
George Jacoby
 
You can fire your Greek HXP cases with the rubber o-ring if you like "BUT" I have never found a HXP case that had any stretching in the base web area and I can measure this very accurately.

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I think the Greeks mixed Kryptonite with their brass, I ordered 500 once fired HXP cases and checked each one in three places. Not one case had any stretching in the web area, and these cases had been fired in Vickers and Lewis machine guns.

Below a once fired Prvi Partizan .303 case next to a Greek HXP case, the point here is the Prvi case is built heavy duty and the HXP case is made from thinner super grade brass and flexes but doesn't stretch.

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SMLE and S&B Brass

I always get a bright ring around the bottom of my brand new first time fired S&B 303 BRITISH. I think part of the problem is the chamber is at the high end of the chamber spec. But, I don't get the ring with R-P, WIN, and mil/surp ammo.
I won't be reloading this S&B caliber.
Other than tight primer pockets I have had no troubles with pistol calibers and 8mm Mauser brass.
 
My experience with S&B brass has been good. I reload a lot of 9MM and 7.62x25 brass. Every S&B case I've used has been just fine. No problems with primer pockets etc.

I'll take all the 7.62x25 S&B brass any of you want to get rid of.
 
I've shot several cases of S&B 9mm ammo over the years and have reloaded the cases. As others have said the primer pocket is a bit tight but I've found that using my Lee primer pocket cleaner on them makes the re-priming effort normal. The little bit of work to the sides of the pocket when turning the pocket cleaner expands the pocket that micro amount needed for easy insertion of the new primer. .45 acp cases get the same treatment with the same results.

S&B did market some steel cases in the last couple years but their typical brass pistol case reloads loads well.
 
Hello all,

I'm new to this forum, but not to reloading.
I've been using S&B brass for my Mosin Nagant M91/30 and M91/30 PU for a couple of years without experiencing any problems.
I've reloaded the same brass 20 times.
You are right about the tight primer pockets.
"Standard" primer pockets and primers have a diameter of 5.5mm.
S&B primer pockets have a diameter of 5.33mm.
That is why I use S&B primers for my S&B brass and Federal primers for my Lapua and Prvi brass.

I also agree with Denton.
What I've found is that the factory annealing leaves a lot to be desired. Hence the observation that the brass is stiff or brittle. Judicious application of heat and a primer pocket cutter makes it into good brass IMO.
I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me.

I have to add that I necksize only and use reduced loads for both the M91/30and the M91/30 PU.

My 0.02

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin
 
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Started this post a while ago and forgot to mention the S&B .308 is a fight to get in the shell holder I have 5 or 6 308 shell holders same story with all I mean it goes in and out with a lil cussing just not worth it.
Never loaded S&B pistol.
 
I bought 200 unsorted 45acp cases.
About 40 of them were S&B.
I reloaded them tonite & the pockets are VERY tight.
 
Hello all,

...I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me. ...

This suggestion is dangerous. Annealing the entire case will soften the head, which lowers it's ability to withstand pressure.

250 C (482 F) is right at the lower threshold of temperatures that will anneal.
 
As others have said, the primer pockets are tight on the pistol brass.
I just reloaded a box of 45 acp & there were a few where I really had to give it some umph to seat the primer.

But I didn't see any reason to cull 'em.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Mosin
Hello all,

...I apply heat by putting the brass in the oven and heat it up to 250 degrees Celsius.
Works for me. ...


This suggestion is dangerous. Annealing the entire case will soften the head, which lowers it's ability to withstand pressure.

250 C (482 F) is right at the lower threshold of temperatures that will anneal.

@ ARMARSH,

Thank you very much for your reply and for the warning.
I appreciate it, but this is not a suggestion for others.
It's the way I've been treating my brass for over 15 years.
I have experienced no problems at all so far.
No cracks in the neck, no separations, nothing.
I use it only for cartridges with a reduced load.
If you or anyone else thinks that this is dangerous then please don't do it.

Again, thanks for the warning, I really appreciate it, but it works for me.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin
 
I will use them as what I call whatever rounds, out junk shooting in the wood or along the river banks, where losing my brass is known to happen. I have never had any problems loading them, and if I find any of the brass I load them again.


RC
 
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